Author Topic: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction  (Read 20945 times)

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Offline LobsterMobster

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2005, 08:10:20 am »
If Haddeen is shooting down ideas for them being useless I wonder just what he expects this game to do.  Games are useless, d00d.

Offline Jaleho

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2005, 08:16:49 am »
If Haddeen is shooting down ideas for them being useless I wonder just what he expects this game to do. Games are useless, d00d.

I don't totally blame him or anyone else that has been critical of this kind of stuff. I mean, Will himself said he wanted to make Spore a light gaming experience. I'm just trying to point out to Will and the rest of them that they've built something more powerful than they know.

If people want "Spore: The Game" as something fun to do, that's fine. But it would be a crime not to then make something bigger with it afterwards: "Spore: The Persistant Realistic Universe Simulator".

Offline Golgrig

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2005, 09:05:52 am »
no no no your totally misunderstanding the golgrig.....
             I got it.... I got it.... oh $#it I lost it.

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Offline Ameg

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2005, 10:35:49 am »
Problem with sexual dimorphism is that you effectively have double the amount of creatures in the game (one model for male, one for female) which means that you can only fit half as many creatures in the size, still a very small space, but the difference between 20000 and 10000.

Offline Jaleho

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2005, 10:58:48 am »
Problem with sexual dimorphism is that you effectively have double the amount of creatures in the game (one model for male, one for female) which means that you can only fit half as many creatures in the size, still a very small space, but the difference between 20000 and 10000.

Oh, that's a simple one - make it optional, and utilize the procedural texturing. There's plenty of species where you can't really tell much difference between genders, and some where there's a huge obvious difference. If you want the only difference to be size or coloration, the system should handle that pretty easily. If you actually want different PARTS for the different genders, it should cost more (Antlers or tailfeathers). I think most of us would be happy with "make the female 90% the size of the male, and give her a less colorful texture". It looks like the system is doing that already at the city stage (different color variations for different civs, different sized creatures walking around).

Offline Zealousy

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2005, 11:57:38 am »
what do you think of this idea Zealousy?

you get two statue versions of your creature and a minimal clay modifier (pull around the skin not bone) and some options spikes, hair, coloring, ect to give creatures character.

you modify two statues and they can be the standard of variation for the species.

or for the gender minded, the gender modifier


I actually think that's a pretty cool idea. When I mentioned how cool it would be to have an actual mating ritual, I was thinking of one of Will's creatures with some peacock feathers trying to win over another of his species. and that seems pretty doable with this idea. Good one. ;)

When I said earlier that mom and pop don't raise their young, I was referring to what I saw in the Spore presentations; and once an infant was born the members of the previous generation were gone. I wasn't talking about how things actually work, only what I've seen in the game videos. Just thought I'd clarify. ;D

Again, I don't care what ends up in the final version, and obviously things will be different than what's been presented at the GDC and E3. If the developers add some kind of family dynamic, where sporians must be raised, then I still don't care what ends up in game, especially because there are/were certain species of animal that laid eggs and were not 'loner' creatures (various forms of dinosaurs, various birds, termites and other insects all have either a group or colony dynamic).

I definitely think an option would be cool though, and I don't see any disadvantage to adding this feature as another way to customize a creature; I just tend to be a bit of an empiricist over here, and so unless I see a feature mentioned by an official dev, I'll view it's implementation with some skepticism. It just makes surprises better that way. 8)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 12:20:16 pm by Zealousy »
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Offline Jaleho

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2005, 01:09:21 pm »
When I said earlier that mom and pop don't raise their young, I was referring to what I saw in the Spore presentations; and once an infant was born the members of the previous generation were gone. I wasn't talking about how things actually work, only what I've seen in the game videos. Just thought I'd clarify. ;D

And I think that's the purpose of almost all these forum discussions. We've all seen the video, and so far, the video (and a few podcasts and screenshots) is all we've seen. Most of what we're doing here for the next few months is "wouldn't it be cool if" or "i hope they" kind of talk. Sure, we have a list of "confirmed and denied" faq answers, but even those we can't be sure won't change in the next year -- I can't imagine that, if Will says "no ringworlds" and the entire fanbase says "we want ringworlds" they won't stop and say "ok, maybe we should put ringworlds in the game."

By someone posting a "wish" on the forums, the devs get to see what are the major things they ought to add - considering live birth doesn't seem such a popular idea apart from me and a few others, chances are they'll find more popular things to work on first.

Again, I don't care what ends up in the final version, and obviously things will be different than what's been presented at the GDC and E3.

I don't think you mean you don't care - otherwise you wouldn't be here talking about it a year in advance with the rest of us. More than likely, you mean "no matter what ends up in Spore, whether they use any of our ideas or not, I have no doubt this game is going to make me pee my pants with happiness when it comes out" -- just like the rest of us.

If the developers add some kind of family dynamic, where sporians must be raised, then I still don't care what ends up in game, especially because there are/were certain species of animal that laid eggs and were not 'loner' creatures (various forms of dinosaurs, various birds, termites and other insects all have either a group or colony dynamic).

So much of Spore is going to be optional, which is why I'm such an advocate for "shove in as much as possible and let the users ignore the parts they don't want" - but they can only do so much in a year, too :)

I definitely think an option would be cool though, and I don't see any disadvantage to adding this feature as another way to customize a creature; I just tend to be a bit of an empiricist over here, and so unless I see a feature mentioned by an official dev, I'll view it's implementation with some skepticism. It just makes surprises better that way. 8)

And that's the exciting part - for all our hopes and wishes with Spore, there will no doubt be things we discover while playing that not even we thought of.

Offline Ameg

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2005, 07:47:27 pm »
One thing we need to remember is the logic/emotion of our creatures which decides whether they will herd or be loners. Obviously herding creatures will be near their species, although it's not apparent if there will be any special interaction between your creature and others, much less your creature and parents.

Offline Haddeen Sol

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2005, 08:16:04 pm »
I don't think having twice as many creatures would hurt at all. I'm sure all of you remember how when you zoom out cities become representations, and creatures more or less disappear completely. It really seems to work on a "the closer you zoom, the more detail" method, and having two different creatures compressed down, it doesn't make much difference in the long run.
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Offline Zealousy

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2005, 08:21:55 pm »
Jaleho, you read my mind, especially the part about me peeing my pants. :D
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Offline Ameg

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2005, 09:49:21 pm »
I don't think having twice as many creatures would hurt at all. I'm sure all of you remember how when you zoom out cities become representations, and creatures more or less disappear completely. It really seems to work on a "the closer you zoom, the more detail" method, and having two different creatures compressed down, it doesn't make much difference in the long run.

I'm thinking more along the lines of half as many creatures on the cd, twice the space used on the website rather than actual gameplay impact.

Offline LobsterMobster

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2005, 08:40:31 am »
I'll remind you guys that each creature only takes up a couple kb.  If you have 10,000 creatures on your CD instead of 20,000, will you really know the difference?

Offline BobFromReboot

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2005, 12:32:25 pm »
Haha omg 2 MB instead of one! Not even.

Has anyone else realised that this games probably just gonna be on one CD-ROM?

Offline Jecrell

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2005, 01:43:22 pm »
Haha omg 2 MB instead of one! Not even.

Has anyone else realised that this games probably just gonna be on one CD-ROM?

...
I doubt that.

Creature files may be small, but the game tools may be HUGE.
Not to mention those massive all-in-one scripts.

Offline kmr

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Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2005, 02:02:55 pm »
You're all nuts.  ;D

Sexual dimorphism won't happen. Why? Because the nextthing you know, people ask why there can't be trimorphism, hecamorphism or duodecamorphism. It would open Pandora's Box.

Oh, it's possible it could be done, certainly. But gender differences are tip-of-the-iceberg stuff: there's a whole lot more to it that isn't immediately visible to the eye. Like gender dynamics, which would add another layer of difficulty to the tribal and civilisation stages that is entirely unwarranted, and even unwanted in the lgaming experience Spore wants to deliver. And since these things are more random than emergent, procedural algorithms won't be the best way of handling them.

And about that thing with Spore opening endless possibilities: the Universal Game has always been the Holy Grail of the industry. It is a admirable and lofty goal to aim at, but it is inconceivable that it will ever be realized -- no matter how cool, new and procedural Spore may be,
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