Topic: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction

[Quantum Burrito]

what really boils my bollocks

Sigged.

[LobsterMobster]

Hey Jaleho, can I borrow your robot?

[Jaleho]

Hey Jaleho, can I borrow your robot?

The AS-M Mobile Robot from China is $349.95. But the Spore icon robot is free

[Haddeen Sol]

@Jaleho

I didn't say the technology couldn't have practical uses. I'm sure it can be applied to a whole variety of otherwise useless crap, in the end. I'm just saying that it'd be useless to have alternate forms of birthing. Eggs work as little representations.

[Jaleho]

I didn't say the technology couldn't have practical uses. I'm sure it can be applied to a whole variety of otherwise useless crap, in the end. I'm just saying that it'd be useless to have alternate forms of birthing. Eggs work as little representations.

Lead figurines on a tabletop are "representations" in a pencil and paper RPG. A glowing egg in an otherwise fully-rendered procedural animated world with a sign saying "pretend this is a mother dedicated to raising her offspring, teaching them how to survive in the world" is incomplete. Give me a "embryo" icon rather than an egg and a five-second procedural slideshow of the young being born, growing up, and going out on their own - at least that is making an effort to fit with the rest of the game rather than cheating.

[Haddeen Sol]

Well, now that you put it that way, it does seem pretty simple.

[Zealousy]

I don't see how using an egg is cheating at all, because the adults are not looking after their young. There is no rearing of infants. I think an egg is the most appropriate, because once the baby's born mommy and daddy are gone; it's time to focus on the next generation. The background of the creature editor was mentioned by someone on these forums (perhaps even Steve) to resemble the inside of the egg. Plus, the fact that we're actively interacting with unborn life out in the wilderness seems to make an egg more appropriate: we can't walk around outside, find a random animal and look inside them to discover what's growing, but it's very easy to pick up an egg found outside and see what's inside. Besides seeming intuitive (at least for me ) I can also see its impact on gameplay; I'd rather click on an egg than a mother's stomach, especially if she's running around. I can understand the argument that mothers can stay at the nest and such, but I'd have to ask why. If I were playing I'd want all my creatures dripping with life, and not watch as certain members of my race are rendered immobile. With an egg I can have not only fully active creatures, but also a stationary point in the game world where I can interact with the next generation of my species.

I don't see a problem with using the egg as an icon either. Yes it's representative and is unrealistic, but I could use the same logic to dismiss the use of interfaces, or discredit RTS games (and even Spore) because of the way structures just 'appear' and aren't actually 'built,' and no-one from my army actually eats or sleeps. I'd say that all of Will Wright's games are exponentially more representative than realistic. This is extremist, but Spore is a game first, and a simulation of life second.

Of course, that's just one weirdo's opinion.

[Golgrig]

I Just want spore, eggs and all

wanting procedural birth is like wanting halo 3 to have bathrooms or post traumatic stress syndrome,
just ends up being one thing"NOT FUN."

you ever seen birthing human or animal, its not fun, its kind of disgusting......

if you need to see birthing go to a hospital, or a vet.

now... a visible difference between individuals of your species is fine
but i don't want to see your uber cool lizard like thing give birth or raise young.

[Zealousy]

I just noticed that I never actually made a point in my previous post; just argument for argument's sake, I guess.

So anyway, to be clear, I don't really care what ends up being in the game, and it would be interesting to have a choice. At the same time, I can understand various reasons as to why various forms of birth won't be included (the gross-factor being mentioned by golgrig ) and I don't think it's very high on the list of priorities at Maxis. I don't mean to sound like one group of people is right while another is wrong, because none of us have any concrete facts, except that we all saw the use of eggs in the GDC and E3 presentations.

And I do agree, seeing variations between the sexes would indeed be a welcome feature. It makes me wonder how elaborate winning-over the opposite sex will be. It would be entertaining to have to coax other creatures, instead of merely sounding a mating call and seeing who's receptive.

[Golgrig]

what do you think of this idea Zealousy?

you get two statue versions of your creature and a minimal clay modifier (pull around the skin not bone) and some options spikes, hair, coloring, ect to give creatures character.

you modify two statues and they can be the standard of variation for the species.

or for the gender minded, the gender modifier

[Stromko]

Having different castes/genders will be important to properly create many concepts, you don't have to think for too long about pre-existing alien species in TV and comicbooks or whatever without running across one where gender or castes play a huge role in the appearance or even function of a creature. Not to mention just about every creature on Earth; even those where you'd think both genders are pretty similiar often have different markings and lifecycles.

From what we know it just doesn't seem that (comparatively) hard to put gender or castes of some kind into Spore as optional features for creatures, it would only be a matter of putting a couple more lines of code in a creature file you'd think. More importantly, I really think it would add sufficient playability to be worth the time they put into it.

Graphical representation of breeding and birthing methods should be glossed over IMO, if you really think about it even the visual of laying eggs can make people pretty squeamish. It doesn't seem worth the time.

Also, I think I've been spared a great deal by not going onto the forums pretty frequently, but I can understand the frustration of seeing the same themes show up on the forums consistently. Every week / 24 hrs there's another thread about the dreaded Phallusians sneaking into someone's game possibly, and sooner or later in every thread someone says 'ooh definitely in an expansion pack'. It's like a cliche unique to this community. I think usually it means 'that idea is pretty frigging out there but I guess I wouldn't hate it so long as it doesn't slow the release of Spore'.

I think a lot of us fool ourselves into thinking we're really achieving something here, when at best it's only sure to be a fun past-time and mental exercise. Seeing people say the same sorta thing week after week makes us realize that no longer how many times we 'solve' various issues people will still bring them back up.

[Jaleho]

I don't see how using an egg is cheating at all, because the adults are not looking after their young. There is no rearing of infants. I think an egg is the most appropriate, because once the baby's born mommy and daddy are gone; it's time to focus on the next generation.

Which invalidated a LOT about many species out there - caring for your young is what gives us milkable livestock, bird's nests which inspired early man into basket weaving and eventually all forms of cloth, pair-bonding which is responsible for our familiar family structures, and time-binding, where the young are defenseless so they use that time to learn skills from the parents on what is safe to eat and what animals are dangerous - the beginnings of culture and civilization.

It's more than an icon, it's a whole form of biological development that has vast implications on every stage after it.

If I were playing I'd want all my creatures dripping with life, and not watch as certain members of my race are rendered immobile.

But isn't that the point? That's why men went out and hunted while women stayed home and gathered - BECAUSE they were caring for children. Our whole gender structure is based on our placental reproductive structure, and has only started changing in the past few decades because women are now seen as more than just "breeders". But it doesn't start that way. We might as well just forget making differences between males and females if all they do is meet up, woohoo, then lay and egg and run away. But from a scientific standpoint, that really limits what kind of culture you would have - why would there be families? why would there be leaders? If all our critters are born from abandoned eggs, they shouldn't have tribes or cities.

I don't see a problem with using the egg as an icon either. Yes it's representative and is unrealistic, but I could use the same logic to dismiss the use of interfaces, or discredit RTS games (and even Spore) because of the way structures just 'appear' and aren't actually 'built,' and no-one from my army actually eats or sleeps. I'd say that all of Will Wright's games are exponentially more representative than realistic. This is extremist, but Spore is a game first, and a simulation of life second.

And as long as people think that way, that's all it ever will be. *sigh* The most advanced procedural engine in decades, and all people want to do is blow stuff up with it.

[Jaleho]

Well, now that you put it that way, it does seem pretty simple.

A still picture of the mother with her litter, a still picture of the young chasing bugs or eating plants with mum watching, a still picture of the grown-up creature leaving the nest. Replace the egg icon with an embryo icon, and it's done. an entire new story element.

Sure, i think it would be better to actually play as a mother defending her young or as a pup trying to survive to adulthood, bot i'll take what i can get - even if it includes eggs. I just want it to be as believable as they can get it.

[Golgrig]

Hell Yah I Want To Blow $#!t Up!

The golgrig do not raise our young, they must survive in the wild till they mature, then and only then may they be counted amonge the enlightened...   so lets see your embryo do that!

[Jaleho]

Hell Yah I Want To Blow $#!t Up!

The golgrig do not raise our young, they must survive in the wild till they mature, then and only then may they be counted amonge the enlightened...   so lets see your embryo do that!

See this is why we need multiplayer arenas in Spore - it would be much more exciting to rip into each other characters in battle rather than rattle on in some forum post

But let's see... let's theorize how close the golgrig would get to "blowing $#!+ up" in a believable setting.

Seeing as how they don't raise their young, the offspring don't develop any useful form of communication. Other than growling at potential rivals and mates when they happen to stumble across one, they can't really share ideas.

So they really don't have a way of saying "don't mix those two chemicals, Bob - my uncle did that and blew himself up." And if some lucky golgrig does manage to discover a useful explosive, he can't really record his findings, so when he dies, the knowledge dies with him.

Not much of an effective millitary force, eh?

Culture needs language and manipulators. A few grunts and tools held by your teeth aren't going to be enough to build a spaceship (but probably will be enough in spore, unfortunately). If you're left all on your own in the wilderness, you're not going to develop a language.

No contact with other members of your species in childhood = no language = no culture = no advanced technology.