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Will Wright's Spore => Spore: General => Topic started by: LobsterMobster on June 13, 2005, 06:26:20 am

Title: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: LobsterMobster on June 13, 2005, 06:26:20 am
Anyone happen to know if the devs are planning any sort of sexual dimorphism?  That's when the male and the female of a species look different, for you laymen out there.  :)  We've also seen that lots of things in Spore lay eggs but is that the only means of procreation?  Any placentals, marsupials, or mitotics?
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Caltrop on June 13, 2005, 07:10:18 am
For eggs, I imagine that is just a handy icon to click on... Unless you want to click on pregnant bellies or unicellular buds to open the critter editor? I suppose eggs are probably the easiest. And, since you don't see them giving birth after evo pase (probably) you can imagine they give birth however you want.

I suppose this would be interesting to see, although I'd much rather see breed differences for those in different tribes/cities...
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: LobsterMobster on June 13, 2005, 08:13:08 am
I was thinking more about the benefits of different methods of procreation rather than simply imagining (seeing?) the process.  That's.. kind of messy, no? 

And maybe an embryo icon?  :)
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Daxx on June 13, 2005, 08:23:14 am
Wouldn't it be simpler to stay with the eggs? I mean, it's really only an abstract symbol for calling up the editor, not representative of the method of reproduction. Besides which, the actual method of reproduction wouldn't provide loads of advantages without a lot of extra detail which the devs could do without. I dunno, that's just what I think. Now differentiation between the sexes can just be a cosmetic change - that's simpler, and much more doable.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: SimEarth Freak on June 13, 2005, 12:05:57 pm
It would be cool if you could evolve creatures like spiders, where the female eats the male after mating.  Or how about praying mantises?  Where the female decapitates that male after mating.  Cool!  :-P
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Oviraptor on June 13, 2005, 12:08:24 pm
I think once you mate (and get an egg or whatever) you immediately lose control of your previous creature. You then become the "egg" and make changes and then you "hatch" and you now control that creature.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Azriel on June 13, 2005, 02:50:23 pm
Yea, I was thinking of something like this earlier.  These are aliens/different species, you  would assume there would be different reproductive methods.  Like to be able to paralyze and implant an egg in an enemy to grow out of that body (like certain wasps do with other insects and small creatures.)  Or perhaps it takes 3 or more of the species to reproduce, or perhaps something else.  Anyway, I doubt anything like this will apear in Spore but perhaps an expansion?
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Hydromancerx on June 17, 2005, 04:23:21 pm
Yeha if they don't and somone makes a human they will all look like guys or all look like girls.

This would create for some preaty freaky wars where you have a planet of all guys looking humans vs the infamious "Phallus of Doom".  :-\
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Tarious on June 17, 2005, 07:43:38 pm
I've thought about this once.

Why eggs?
Might be in an x-pack to choose something different
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Haddeen Sol on June 17, 2005, 08:11:12 pm
[rant] GODDAMNIT! I have had it up to here with your expansion pack talk. This game is coming out in fifteen-something months, and now you people start talking about expansion packs? Not only that but Will Wright himself, the head honcho, said that they probably won't add any new features, but move parts to different systems, and you people keep saying "Oooh, we don't have this. Expansion pack later." Dear Father Nurgle![/rant]
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jecrell on June 17, 2005, 09:06:28 pm
... Personally I see absolutely no reason not to include the feature, and I've already argued the spider's mating rituals in detail in previous threads...

Previous threads where everyone argued against it..
...
Except maybe one guy --

*salutes the one guy*
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Azriel on June 19, 2005, 09:25:46 pm
Yea, because we know will wright NEVER makes expansion packs for his games..oh..wait.  ;D  I Think it depends on how well the game sells, I am pretty sure the game is going to sell good.  If it sales REALLY good then there will be a lot of pressure from fans and the publishers to add new stuff to it, just like the sims.  Still, the game hasn't even been released so it is way to early to tell, but it doesn't hurt to dream does it?  Besides, it keeps the boards alive and gives us something to kill the time until the game is released.  ;)
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Haddeen Sol on June 20, 2005, 12:04:13 am
Sure, it doesn't hurt to dream, but it does hurt to keep hearing about it until your ears bleed pus. Most people didn't think you could have underwater civilizations. Maybe in an expansion pack. The very mention of expansion packs is what makes me angry. Maybe it'll be in, maybe it won't. But as one might see, Spore isn't exactly an expansion pack sort of thing. It's a game, as some might've said, that's actually meant to be modded. The players create the new content, and there isn't an awful lot one can add in except these new enviroments, such as underground and whatnot. But what really boils my bollocks is that people want to add something which is completely useless and impractical for no damn reason. Nobody's trying to make this game complex, it's supposed to be lighthearted and a light gaming experience.

Secondly, people keep mentioning giant freudian compensators so much and complaining about them in advance that I'm going to make one myself, since nobody seems to care to shut up about it.

Thirdly, you can easily have spider rituals by having your creature just kill the other one after mating. Easy as pi.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: LobsterMobster on June 20, 2005, 08:14:15 am
Quote from: Haddeen Sol
Secondly, people keep mentioning giant freudian compensators so much and complaining about them in advance that I'm going to make one myself, since nobody seems to care to shut up about it.

Yeah, I'm starting to get the feeling that that's the sort of person you are, Haddeen.  Y'know, no one's forcing you to read any of these messages.  If you're just going to be nasty and rant at people for expressing their thoughts and opinions, maybe you ought to take it elsewhere.  It isn't productive, it isn't terribly nice, and I don't see anything that gives you the right or authority to do so.

It DOESN'T hurt to dream.  It doesn't hurt to speculate.  So chillax a bit.  If your ears are bleeding pus, go see a doctor.  Ours aren't, and I'm pretty sure most of us don't read and write here with your desires specifically in mind.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 20, 2005, 08:51:05 am
Spore isn't exactly an expansion pack sort of thing. It's a game, as some might've said, that's actually meant to be modded. The players create the new content, and there isn't an awful lot one can add in except these new enviroments, such as underground and whatnot. But what really boils my bollocks is that people want to add something which is completely useless and impractical for no damn reason. Nobody's trying to make this game complex, it's supposed to be lighthearted and a light gaming experience.

A simulation can only be modded so far until you hit a boundary, at which point a hard-core creator-type will say "oh, I guess I can't do that in this game" and go back to REALITY.

Useless and impractical? It's a video game - the entire concept of most video games are useless and impractical! Name one thing in any video game you play that is useful and practical to REAL LIFE. Now, name some pieces of software that ARE practical and useful. I don't know about the others here , but I know for me I'd like to see some USEFUL things in Spore that assure it will exist longer than the next video game gimmick out there.

The Japanese have the Earth Simulator - a supercomputer that simulates the planet's climate to better predict weather changes. The military had the makers of There recreate the Earth topographically so they could do virtual training. The Make-A-Wish Foundation and a LucasArts developer made a game to help kids with Leukemia feel empowered over their illnesses. My company sells professional chemistry, physics, mathematics and technology simulators. The robot we import has a 3d simulator to test out artificial intelligence programs before importing them into the real robot. SETI and The Cancer Foundation both used screensavers to allow regular people to use their computers to benefit their research.

Will and Maxis have found a way to harness this long-lost technology to simulate an entire galaxy, and some people seem intent on simply using that technology to blow up aliens. There's a real world out there, outside video games. Finding a way to show videogames have value besides entertaining unemployed college potheads with too much free time seems, to me, a valuable use of energy.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Quantum Burrito on June 20, 2005, 01:57:14 pm
what really boils my bollocks

Sigged.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: LobsterMobster on June 20, 2005, 02:14:50 pm
Hey Jaleho, can I borrow your robot? :)
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 20, 2005, 03:13:40 pm
Hey Jaleho, can I borrow your robot? :)

The AS-M Mobile Robot from China is $349.95. But the Spore icon robot is free :)
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Haddeen Sol on June 20, 2005, 08:33:05 pm
@Jaleho

I didn't say the technology couldn't have practical uses. I'm sure it can be applied to a whole variety of otherwise useless crap, in the end. I'm just saying that it'd be useless to have alternate forms of birthing. Eggs work as little representations.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 20, 2005, 09:31:47 pm
I didn't say the technology couldn't have practical uses. I'm sure it can be applied to a whole variety of otherwise useless crap, in the end. I'm just saying that it'd be useless to have alternate forms of birthing. Eggs work as little representations.

Lead figurines on a tabletop are "representations" in a pencil and paper RPG. A glowing egg in an otherwise fully-rendered procedural animated world with a sign saying "pretend this is a mother dedicated to raising her offspring, teaching them how to survive in the world" is incomplete. Give me a "embryo" icon rather than an egg and a five-second procedural slideshow of the young being born, growing up, and going out on their own - at least that is making an effort to fit with the rest of the game rather than cheating.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Haddeen Sol on June 20, 2005, 09:45:59 pm
Well, now that you put it that way, it does seem pretty simple.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Zealousy on June 20, 2005, 09:54:49 pm
I don't see how using an egg is cheating at all, because the adults are not looking after their young. There is no rearing of infants. I think an egg is the most appropriate, because once the baby's born mommy and daddy are gone; it's time to focus on the next generation. The background of the creature editor was mentioned by someone on these forums (perhaps even Steve) to resemble the inside of the egg. Plus, the fact that we're actively interacting with unborn life out in the wilderness seems to make an egg more appropriate: we can't walk around outside, find a random animal and look inside them to discover what's growing, but it's very easy to pick up an egg found outside and see what's inside. Besides seeming intuitive (at least for me ;)) I can also see its impact on gameplay; I'd rather click on an egg than a mother's stomach, especially if she's running around. I can understand the argument that mothers can stay at the nest and such, but I'd have to ask why. If I were playing I'd want all my creatures dripping with life, and not watch as certain members of my race are rendered immobile. With an egg I can have not only fully active creatures, but also a stationary point in the game world where I can interact with the next generation of my species.

I don't see a problem with using the egg as an icon either. Yes it's representative and is unrealistic, but I could use the same logic to dismiss the use of interfaces, or discredit RTS games (and even Spore) because of the way structures just 'appear' and aren't actually 'built,' and no-one from my army actually eats or sleeps. I'd say that all of Will Wright's games are exponentially more representative than realistic. This is extremist, but Spore is a game first, and a simulation of life second.

Of course, that's just one weirdo's opinion. :D
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Golgrig on June 20, 2005, 10:05:12 pm
I Just want spore, eggs and all

wanting procedural birth is like wanting halo 3 to have bathrooms or post traumatic stress syndrome,
just ends up being one thing"NOT FUN."

you ever seen birthing human or animal, its not fun, its kind of disgusting......

if you need to see birthing go to a hospital, or a vet.

now... a visible difference between individuals of your species is fine
but i don't want to see your uber cool lizard like thing give birth or raise young.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Zealousy on June 21, 2005, 12:37:42 am
I just noticed that I never actually made a point in my previous post; just argument for argument's sake, I guess. ;D

So anyway, to be clear, I don't really care what ends up being in the game, and it would be interesting to have a choice. At the same time, I can understand various reasons as to why various forms of birth won't be included (the gross-factor being mentioned by golgrig ;)) and I don't think it's very high on the list of priorities at Maxis. I don't mean to sound like one group of people is right while another is wrong, because none of us have any concrete facts, except that we all saw the use of eggs in the GDC and E3 presentations.

And I do agree, seeing variations between the sexes would indeed be a welcome feature. It makes me wonder how elaborate winning-over the opposite sex will be. It would be entertaining to have to coax other creatures, instead of merely sounding a mating call and seeing who's receptive.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Golgrig on June 21, 2005, 12:50:15 am
what do you think of this idea Zealousy?

you get two statue versions of your creature and a minimal clay modifier (pull around the skin not bone) and some options spikes, hair, coloring, ect to give creatures character.

you modify two statues and they can be the standard of variation for the species.

or for the gender minded, the gender modifier
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Stromko on June 21, 2005, 03:38:20 am
Having different castes/genders will be important to properly create many concepts, you don't have to think for too long about pre-existing alien species in TV and comicbooks or whatever without running across one where gender or castes play a huge role in the appearance or even function of a creature. Not to mention just about every creature on Earth; even those where you'd think both genders are pretty similiar often have different markings and lifecycles.

From what we know it just doesn't seem that (comparatively) hard to put gender or castes of some kind into Spore as optional features for creatures, it would only be a matter of putting a couple more lines of code in a creature file you'd think. More importantly, I really think it would add sufficient playability to be worth the time they put into it.

Graphical representation of breeding and birthing methods should be glossed over IMO, if you really think about it even the visual of laying eggs can make people pretty squeamish. It doesn't seem worth the time.

Also, I think I've been spared a great deal by not going onto the forums pretty frequently, but I can understand the frustration of seeing the same themes show up on the forums consistently. Every week / 24 hrs there's another thread about the dreaded Phallusians sneaking into someone's game possibly, and sooner or later in every thread someone says 'ooh definitely in an expansion pack'. It's like a cliche unique to this community. I think usually it means 'that idea is pretty frigging out there but I guess I wouldn't hate it so long as it doesn't slow the release of Spore'.

I think a lot of us fool ourselves into thinking we're really achieving something here, when at best it's only sure to be a fun past-time and mental exercise. Seeing people say the same sorta thing week after week makes us realize that no longer how many times we 'solve' various issues people will still bring them back up.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 21, 2005, 06:14:03 am
I don't see how using an egg is cheating at all, because the adults are not looking after their young. There is no rearing of infants. I think an egg is the most appropriate, because once the baby's born mommy and daddy are gone; it's time to focus on the next generation.

Which invalidated a LOT about many species out there - caring for your young is what gives us milkable livestock, bird's nests which inspired early man into basket weaving and eventually all forms of cloth, pair-bonding which is responsible for our familiar family structures, and time-binding, where the young are defenseless so they use that time to learn skills from the parents on what is safe to eat and what animals are dangerous - the beginnings of culture and civilization.

It's more than an icon, it's a whole form of biological development that has vast implications on every stage after it.

If I were playing I'd want all my creatures dripping with life, and not watch as certain members of my race are rendered immobile.

But isn't that the point? That's why men went out and hunted while women stayed home and gathered - BECAUSE they were caring for children. Our whole gender structure is based on our placental reproductive structure, and has only started changing in the past few decades because women are now seen as more than just "breeders". But it doesn't start that way. We might as well just forget making differences between males and females if all they do is meet up, woohoo, then lay and egg and run away. But from a scientific standpoint, that really limits what kind of culture you would have - why would there be families? why would there be leaders? If all our critters are born from abandoned eggs, they shouldn't have tribes or cities.

I don't see a problem with using the egg as an icon either. Yes it's representative and is unrealistic, but I could use the same logic to dismiss the use of interfaces, or discredit RTS games (and even Spore) because of the way structures just 'appear' and aren't actually 'built,' and no-one from my army actually eats or sleeps. I'd say that all of Will Wright's games are exponentially more representative than realistic. This is extremist, but Spore is a game first, and a simulation of life second.

And as long as people think that way, that's all it ever will be. *sigh* The most advanced procedural engine in decades, and all people want to do is blow stuff up with it.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 21, 2005, 06:17:59 am
Well, now that you put it that way, it does seem pretty simple.

A still picture of the mother with her litter, a still picture of the young chasing bugs or eating plants with mum watching, a still picture of the grown-up creature leaving the nest. Replace the egg icon with an embryo icon, and it's done. an entire new story element.

Sure, i think it would be better to actually play as a mother defending her young or as a pup trying to survive to adulthood, bot i'll take what i can get - even if it includes eggs. I just want it to be as believable as they can get it.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Golgrig on June 21, 2005, 07:15:15 am
Hell Yah I Want To Blow $#!t Up!

The golgrig do not raise our young, they must survive in the wild till they mature, then and only then may they be counted amonge the enlightened...   so lets see your embryo do that!
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 21, 2005, 07:58:44 am
Hell Yah I Want To Blow $#!t Up!

The golgrig do not raise our young, they must survive in the wild till they mature, then and only then may they be counted amonge the enlightened...   so lets see your embryo do that!

See this is why we need multiplayer arenas in Spore - it would be much more exciting to rip into each other characters in battle rather than rattle on in some forum post :)

But let's see... let's theorize how close the golgrig would get to "blowing $#!+ up" in a believable setting.

Seeing as how they don't raise their young, the offspring don't develop any useful form of communication. Other than growling at potential rivals and mates when they happen to stumble across one, they can't really share ideas.

So they really don't have a way of saying "don't mix those two chemicals, Bob - my uncle did that and blew himself up." And if some lucky golgrig does manage to discover a useful explosive, he can't really record his findings, so when he dies, the knowledge dies with him.

Not much of an effective millitary force, eh? :)

Culture needs language and manipulators. A few grunts and tools held by your teeth aren't going to be enough to build a spaceship (but probably will be enough in spore, unfortunately). If you're left all on your own in the wilderness, you're not going to develop a language.

No contact with other members of your species in childhood = no language = no culture = no advanced technology.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: LobsterMobster on June 21, 2005, 08:10:20 am
If Haddeen is shooting down ideas for them being useless I wonder just what he expects this game to do.  Games are useless, d00d.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 21, 2005, 08:16:49 am
If Haddeen is shooting down ideas for them being useless I wonder just what he expects this game to do.  Games are useless, d00d.

I don't totally blame him or anyone else that has been critical of this kind of stuff. I mean, Will himself said he wanted to make Spore a light gaming experience. I'm just trying to point out to Will and the rest of them that they've built something more powerful than they know.

If people want "Spore: The Game" as something fun to do, that's fine. But it would be a crime not to then make something bigger with it afterwards: "Spore: The Persistant Realistic Universe Simulator".
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Golgrig on June 21, 2005, 09:05:52 am
no no no your totally misunderstanding the golgrig.....
             I got it.... I got it.... oh $#it I lost it.

Survival of the fitest-- just at birth
the adults band together

We dont need no childhood
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Ameg on June 21, 2005, 10:35:49 am
Problem with sexual dimorphism is that you effectively have double the amount of creatures in the game (one model for male, one for female) which means that you can only fit half as many creatures in the size, still a very small space, but the difference between 20000 and 10000.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 21, 2005, 10:58:48 am
Problem with sexual dimorphism is that you effectively have double the amount of creatures in the game (one model for male, one for female) which means that you can only fit half as many creatures in the size, still a very small space, but the difference between 20000 and 10000.

Oh, that's a simple one - make it optional, and utilize the procedural texturing. There's plenty of species where you can't really tell much difference between genders, and some where there's a huge obvious difference. If you want the only difference to be size or coloration, the system should handle that pretty easily. If you actually want different PARTS for the different genders, it should cost more (Antlers or tailfeathers). I think most of us would be happy with "make the female 90% the size of the male, and give her a less colorful texture". It looks like the system is doing that already at the city stage (different color variations for different civs, different sized creatures walking around).
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Zealousy on June 21, 2005, 11:57:38 am
what do you think of this idea Zealousy?

you get two statue versions of your creature and a minimal clay modifier (pull around the skin not bone) and some options spikes, hair, coloring, ect to give creatures character.

you modify two statues and they can be the standard of variation for the species.

or for the gender minded, the gender modifier


I actually think that's a pretty cool idea. When I mentioned how cool it would be to have an actual mating ritual, I was thinking of one of Will's creatures with some peacock feathers trying to win over another of his species. and that seems pretty doable with this idea. Good one. ;)

When I said earlier that mom and pop don't raise their young, I was referring to what I saw in the Spore presentations; and once an infant was born the members of the previous generation were gone. I wasn't talking about how things actually work, only what I've seen in the game videos. Just thought I'd clarify. ;D

Again, I don't care what ends up in the final version, and obviously things will be different than what's been presented at the GDC and E3. If the developers add some kind of family dynamic, where sporians must be raised, then I still don't care what ends up in game, especially because there are/were certain species of animal that laid eggs and were not 'loner' creatures (various forms of dinosaurs, various birds, termites and other insects all have either a group or colony dynamic).

I definitely think an option would be cool though, and I don't see any disadvantage to adding this feature as another way to customize a creature; I just tend to be a bit of an empiricist over here, and so unless I see a feature mentioned by an official dev, I'll view it's implementation with some skepticism. It just makes surprises better that way. 8)
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 21, 2005, 01:09:21 pm
When I said earlier that mom and pop don't raise their young, I was referring to what I saw in the Spore presentations; and once an infant was born the members of the previous generation were gone. I wasn't talking about how things actually work, only what I've seen in the game videos. Just thought I'd clarify. ;D

And I think that's the purpose of almost all these forum discussions. We've all seen the video, and so far, the video (and a few podcasts and screenshots) is all we've seen. Most of what we're doing here for the next few months is "wouldn't it be cool if" or "i hope they" kind of talk. Sure, we have a list of "confirmed and denied" faq answers, but even those we can't be sure won't change in the next year -- I can't imagine that, if Will says "no ringworlds" and the entire fanbase says "we want ringworlds" they won't stop and say "ok, maybe we should put ringworlds in the game."

By someone posting a "wish" on the forums, the devs get to see what are the major things they ought to add - considering live birth doesn't seem such a popular idea apart from me and a few others, chances are they'll find more popular things to work on first.

Again, I don't care what ends up in the final version, and obviously things will be different than what's been presented at the GDC and E3.

I don't think you mean you don't care - otherwise you wouldn't be here talking about it a year in advance with the rest of us. More than likely, you mean "no matter what ends up in Spore, whether they use any of our ideas or not, I have no doubt this game is going to make me pee my pants with happiness when it comes out" -- just like the rest of us.

If the developers add some kind of family dynamic, where sporians must be raised, then I still don't care what ends up in game, especially because there are/were certain species of animal that laid eggs and were not 'loner' creatures (various forms of dinosaurs, various birds, termites and other insects all have either a group or colony dynamic).

So much of Spore is going to be optional, which is why I'm such an advocate for "shove in as much as possible and let the users ignore the parts they don't want" - but they can only do so much in a year, too :)

I definitely think an option would be cool though, and I don't see any disadvantage to adding this feature as another way to customize a creature; I just tend to be a bit of an empiricist over here, and so unless I see a feature mentioned by an official dev, I'll view it's implementation with some skepticism. It just makes surprises better that way. 8)

And that's the exciting part - for all our hopes and wishes with Spore, there will no doubt be things we discover while playing that not even we thought of.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Ameg on June 21, 2005, 07:47:27 pm
One thing we need to remember is the logic/emotion of our creatures which decides whether they will herd or be loners. Obviously herding creatures will be near their species, although it's not apparent if there will be any special interaction between your creature and others, much less your creature and parents.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Haddeen Sol on June 21, 2005, 08:16:04 pm
I don't think having twice as many creatures would hurt at all. I'm sure all of you remember how when you zoom out cities become representations, and creatures more or less disappear completely. It really seems to work on a "the closer you zoom, the more detail" method, and having two different creatures compressed down, it doesn't make much difference in the long run.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Zealousy on June 21, 2005, 08:21:55 pm
Jaleho, you read my mind, especially the part about me peeing my pants. :D
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Ameg on June 21, 2005, 09:49:21 pm
I don't think having twice as many creatures would hurt at all. I'm sure all of you remember how when you zoom out cities become representations, and creatures more or less disappear completely. It really seems to work on a "the closer you zoom, the more detail" method, and having two different creatures compressed down, it doesn't make much difference in the long run.

I'm thinking more along the lines of half as many creatures on the cd, twice the space used on the website rather than actual gameplay impact.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: LobsterMobster on June 22, 2005, 08:40:31 am
I'll remind you guys that each creature only takes up a couple kb.  If you have 10,000 creatures on your CD instead of 20,000, will you really know the difference?
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: BobFromReboot on June 22, 2005, 12:32:25 pm
Haha omg 2 MB instead of one! Not even.

Has anyone else realised that this games probably just gonna be on one CD-ROM?
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jecrell on June 22, 2005, 01:43:22 pm
Haha omg 2 MB instead of one! Not even.

Has anyone else realised that this games probably just gonna be on one CD-ROM?

...
I doubt that.

Creature files may be small, but the game tools may be HUGE.
Not to mention those massive all-in-one scripts.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: kmr on June 22, 2005, 02:02:55 pm
You're all nuts.  ;D

Sexual dimorphism won't happen. Why? Because the nextthing you know, people ask why there can't be trimorphism, hecamorphism or duodecamorphism. It would open Pandora's Box.

Oh, it's possible it could be done, certainly. But gender differences are tip-of-the-iceberg stuff: there's a whole lot more to it that isn't immediately visible to the eye. Like gender dynamics, which would add another layer of difficulty to the tribal and civilisation stages that is entirely unwarranted, and even unwanted in the lgaming experience Spore wants to deliver. And since these things are more random than emergent, procedural algorithms won't be the best way of handling them.

And about that thing with Spore opening endless possibilities: the Universal Game has always been the Holy Grail of the industry. It is a admirable and lofty goal to aim at, but it is inconceivable that it will ever be realized -- no matter how cool, new and procedural Spore may be,
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Borogove on June 22, 2005, 02:38:51 pm
... and even unwanted in the lgaming experience Spore wants to deliver. And since these things are more random than emergent, procedural algorithms won't be the best way of handling them.

And about that thing with Spore opening endless possibilities: the Universal Game has always been the Holy Grail of the industry. It is a admirable and lofty goal to aim at, but it is inconceivable that it will ever be realized -- no matter how cool, new and procedural Spore may be,
I was looking for these words in my little debate with Jaleho  :)

Creature files may be small, but the game tools may be HUGE.
Not to mention those massive all-in-one scripts.
For a long time now game content has taken up WAY more disc space than code.  So I suspect that is gong to be a non-issue.  I mena, don't expect the game code to fit on a floppy (does anyone even use those anymore?), but it won't take up a significant part of a CD
Size of scripts I guess would depend how high-level they are.  I expect pretty high tho.  And text compresses very well.

But then, they could still pack an extra CD full of a lots and lots (and lots!) of creatures, vehicles, worlds, etc.  Just so that they can say can put on the box that it comes with a million premade things   ;D
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 22, 2005, 03:12:23 pm
But gender differences are tip-of-the-iceberg stuff

in a game like Spore, what isn't? Anything they choose to put in just opens up a dozen more possibilities. Welcome to the human imagination.

And about that thing with Spore opening endless possibilities: the Universal Game has always been the Holy Grail of the industry. It is a admirable and lofty goal to aim at, but it is inconceivable that it will ever be realized -- no matter how cool, new and procedural Spore may be,

"The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones that do." - Apple commercial
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Jaleho on June 22, 2005, 03:36:32 pm
... and even unwanted in the lgaming experience Spore wants to deliver. And since these things are more random than emergent, procedural algorithms won't be the best way of handling them.

And about that thing with Spore opening endless possibilities: the Universal Game has always been the Holy Grail of the industry. It is a admirable and lofty goal to aim at, but it is inconceivable that it will ever be realized -- no matter how cool, new and procedural Spore may be,
I was looking for these words in my little debate with Jaleho  :)

If a programmer takes the time to combine random events with emergent, procedural algorithms, they've just simulated quantum physics. How is that kind of skill a bad thing?

And about this "inconceivable" goal... did I watch the same video as you guys? Didn't Will end his talk by saying "the biggest bottleneck to this whole thing was my own imagination and belief that it could be done"? I mean, as long as people keep thinking "it can't happen" then no, it WON'T happen. Bu the more people who start believing "a universal game could actually be built", then the closer it comes to reality!

Has the power of human imagination been so dulled that people just take things as they are and don't strive to acieve the impossible anymore? Where have all the artists and dreamers gone, anyway? Has the corporate society really won so soon? Have bills and schedules and monotonous consumerism really dulled us so far that people look at market values and corporate trends and technical limitations and just say "well, I guess that's all we can do"?

No matter what they put in Spore, it will always fall short of the real world, because in the real world THERE ARE *NO* BOUNDARIES!

</artist_rant>

 :-\
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: BobFromReboot on June 22, 2005, 04:15:36 pm

For a long time now game content has taken up WAY more disc space than code.  So I suspect that is gong to be a non-issue.  I mena, don't expect the game code to fit on a floppy (does anyone even use those anymore?), but it won't take up a significant part of a CD
Size of scripts I guess would depend how high-level they are.  I expect pretty high tho.  And text compresses very well.

But then, they could still pack an extra CD full of a lots and lots (and lots!) of creatures, vehicles, worlds, etc.  Just so that they can say can put on the box that it comes with a million premade things   ;D

I concur.

Will was saying how the data of Myst out-weighs the code by about 500 times. So If this code is even super advanced stuff, I doubt it would be larger than 700Mb of raw compilled code.The only reason I could see it taking up more than one CD is for like a making of feature or something, although that would be more suited to a DVD because of all the data video files have.
Title: Re: Sexual Dimorphism and Alternate Reproduction
Post by: Borogove on June 22, 2005, 08:47:23 pm
EDIT: ...moved this big rant to "potential of Spore" thread instead of hijacking this one...