Author Topic: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?  (Read 16504 times)

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Offline Rubric

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 01:17:06 pm »
For example, here is a barren, lifeless planetm you can see the 3 circles in the center shaded in. After some terroforming, the dot enters the first circle, and the first tier is unlocked as seen here. Then you unlock herbivores by placing plants, you unlock carnivores by placing herbivores.

Thanks for pointing this out.  Very interesting....

I'm sure your conclusions must be right.

Offline Techleo

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2008, 01:28:32 pm »
 Well at least I understand what the system of ecologies is like. The whole unlocking system is quite awesome ;D

Offline Pinstar

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2008, 02:06:17 pm »
I hope that for your 'home' planet, it is automatically geared to support all three tiers of creatures. At least at first...
I'm wondering if some wars/bad decisions during the civ phase might cause your planet to lose a tier or two, (global warming, nuclear war)


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Offline Rubric

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2008, 02:22:18 pm »
I'm wondering if some wars/bad decisions during the civ phase might cause your planet to lose a tier or two, (global warming, nuclear war)

That would be pretty cool. 

And, not too far out of the realm of possibility, considering that other Maxis games let you permanently damage your self.  Think nuclear melt down in Sim City, or just basic burning your house down in Sims.

Offline Markonite2

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2008, 04:24:39 pm »
How are you all so sure the ecosystem will be an ecosystem at all?
Let me try to explain:

Will the ecosystem function?
Will creatures be eaten and die out to regulate the food chain?
Will other creatures really give birth or will their eggs just be useless objects waiting for you to come harvest them?
Will other carnivores stalk NPC herbivores?
Will other herbivores eat fruit off of bushes?

Or will they all just wander around in herds waiting for you to come nearby before they decide to do anything?
Will the ecosystem work when you are not nearby? Or will it be a clever illusion?

That's about as clear as I can make it.
What it really comes down to is:

Will other creatures (besides yours) be able to interact with each other?

Please tell me we have some proof of an implemented working ecosystem.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 04:27:18 pm by Markonite2 »
'Streets of Spore': where you drive around in a low-poly world doing missions that don't relate to the game whatsoever...

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The almighty Ham, or the magical Spam, which lives in a can. - Anthony Reubon

Offline Logan Felipe

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2008, 04:32:48 pm »
How are you all so sure the ecosystem will be an ecosystem at all?
Let me try to explain:

Will the ecosystem function?
Will creatures be eaten and die out to regulate the food chain?
Will other creatures really give birth or will their eggs just be useless objects waiting for you to come harvest them?
Will other carnivores stalk NPC herbivores?
Will other herbivores eat fruit off of bushes?

Or will they all just wander around in herds waiting for you to come nearby before they decide to do anything?
Will the ecosystem work when you are not nearby? Or will it be a clever illusion?

That's about as clear as I can make it.
What it really comes down to is:

Will other creatures (besides yours) be able to interact with each other?

Please tell me we have some proof of an implemented working ecosystem.

I hope so. I want to run across a predator attacking a herbivore herd. I want to chase smaller predators off a kill, then have my creature eat the carcass. User-independent interactions amongst the ecosysytem.
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Offline azareon

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2008, 06:37:08 pm »
Well, I can't make any guarantees obviously, but I would be very surprised if Spore didn't have at least decent dynamic AI.  In many games, we have already seen the AI forming a coherent system that reacts to the player but can also function independently of the player.

With respect to affecting the ecosystem in creature or civilization stages, I think Will and the team want to create a coherent whole.  I remember seeing somewhere that when you are able to see the whole planet, you will see the very shore where you first emerged from the primordial ooze.  By the same token, you should be able to eat a species to extinction and see the ecosystem adapt around this change.  Then when you reach the space stage, you'll control that same kind of ecosystem from above and see how it connects back to your own world and your own experiences.  At the least, we know from the San Francisco apple store footage that you can eat a species to extinction in the creature stage.  This is the kind of dynamic idea that's getting me really excited for Spore.

Offline Blulightning

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2008, 11:28:11 pm »
Wait, is that 2007 video the latest thing we have about the boxes?

I mean, that was a year ago... the game has already changed a lot since then.

Offline Markonite2

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2008, 11:47:22 pm »
I also hope the AI is dynamic. That would make me very happy and give the creature stage much more replayability.
I would like to have the understanding that I can change the Ecosystem, or even destroy it with my actions.
It would be amazing to take out a crucial part of the ecosystem and watch it collapse slowly.
I would love to team up and destroy the Alpha predator, leaving the rest of the planet to thrive and overpopulate,
or kill all of the weak herbivores and watch the medium creatures starve followed by the predators.

These things could only occur if:

Other creatures have a hunger amount (they are driven by hunger to eat)
Other creatures can reproduce realistically
Other creatures can hunt each other and gather food

I'm not so sure the ecosystem will be this dynamic, but right now I am hoping...
'Streets of Spore': where you drive around in a low-poly world doing missions that don't relate to the game whatsoever...

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The almighty Ham, or the magical Spam, which lives in a can. - Anthony Reubon

Offline Ondaderthad

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2008, 11:51:45 pm »
I heard Will Wright mention in one of the videos (?) that the whole system is based on Conway Game of Life

The "game" is actually a zero-player game, meaning that its evolution is determined by its initial state, needing no input from human players. One interacts with the Game of Life by creating an initial configuration and observing how it evolves.

The algorithm is fairly small and can handle any kind of evolution like prey and predators in Spore.

EDIT:
Here is the actual Life code for a Neverwinter version.
Code: [Select]
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// The Game of Life Copyright (c) 2001 Bioware Corp.
//
// v1.0 06/24/01 Noel Borstad
// v1.1 06/26/01 Richard Conner Optimized, removed unneeded LocalInt use
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// If a cell has less than 2, or more than 3 neighbours then it 'dies'
// If a dead one has exactly 3 neighbours, it becomes 'alive'
//
// This script is meant to be placed on the Area as a "User Defined Event"
// script. The area is scripted to fire an event at itself when a user enters,
// which triggers this script, which will continue to trigger itself
// indefinitely. Every time the script is run it will do one iteration.
//
// At any time, players can walk onto the 'board' and rearrange the patterns
// just by picking up the items that we use as cells, and dropping them in
// approximately the right place.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
void main()
{
        float fOffset = 0.3125f; // space between cells (length a tile)
        float fSelfLength = fOffset / 2.0f; // error tolerance for cell placement
        float fLength = fOffset * 1.7f; // area to count neighbours in
        float fIterDelay = 0.75f; // Delay between iterations

        location lSpawn, lOrigin;
        vector vSpawn, vOrigin;
        object oCell, oOtherCell, oArea;
        int bCellAtPosition, nCount, i, j;

        lOrigin = GetLocation( GetWaypointByTag("Origin") );
        vOrigin = GetPositionFromLocation(lOrigin);
        oArea = GetAreaFromLocation(lOrigin);

        for (i=0; i<19; i++)
        {
                for (j=0; j<19; j++)
                {
                        // Calculate location that this cell should be at
                        vSpawn = Vector(i * fOffset,j * fOffset) + vOrigin;
                        lSpawn = Location(oArea, vSpawn, 0.0f);

                        // Get the cell at this location
                        oCell = GetFirstObjectInShape(SHAPE_CUBE, fSelfLength, lSpawn, FALSE, OBJECT_TYPE_ITEM);
                        bCellAtPosition = GetIsObjectValid(oCell) && GetTag(oCell) == "CELL";

                        // Count this location's neighbours
                        nCount = 0;
                        oOtherCell = GetFirstObjectInShape(SHAPE_CUBE, fLength, lSpawn, FALSE, OBJECT_TYPE_ITEM);
                        while (nCount < 5 && GetIsObjectValid(oOtherCell) )
                        {
                                if (oOtherCell != oCell && GetTag(oOtherCell) == "CELL")
                                {
                                        nCount++;
                                }
                                oOtherCell = GetNextObjectInShape(SHAPE_CUBE, fLength, lSpawn, FALSE, OBJECT_TYPE_ITEM);
                        }

                        // Do changes if necessary
                        if(bCellAtPosition)
                        {
                                if (nCount < 2 || nCount > 3)
                                {
                                        DestroyObject(oCell); // Note: This will occur after script completes
                                }
                        }
                        else
                        {
                                if (nCount == 3)
                                {
                                        AssignCommand(OBJECT_SELF, CreateCell(lSpawn));
                                }
                        }
                }
        }

        // This command will rerun this script in fIterDelay seconds, by creating a
        // user-defined event which, in turn, runs this script!
        DelayCommand(fIterDelay, SignalEvent(OBJECT_SELF, EventUserDefined(0)));
}

// This is simply because CreateObject returns an Object and therefore
// can’t be used directly in an AssignCommand() statement.
void CreateCell(location loc)
{
        CreateObject(OBJECT_TYPE_ITEM, "CELL", loc);
}

« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 11:56:30 pm by Ondaderthad »

Offline Markonite2

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2008, 12:51:46 am »
That is amazingly reasuring!
Thank you Ondaderthad.

I can't wait to test it to its limits! ;D
'Streets of Spore': where you drive around in a low-poly world doing missions that don't relate to the game whatsoever...

The sig is like a fig. But really, who will triumph?
The almighty Ham, or the magical Spam, which lives in a can. - Anthony Reubon

Offline Feigro

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2008, 05:18:19 am »
Wait, is that 2007 video the latest thing we have about the boxes?

I mean, that was a year ago... the game has already changed a lot since then.

The screenshots in this thread are dated Feb. 13th of 08 and they contain the same UI. Considering the game has been "pretty muched finished" since mid 07 anyway. It's concrete.
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Offline Rubric

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2008, 07:23:31 am »
I heard Will Wright mention in one of the videos (?) that the whole system is based on Conway Game of Life

The "game" is actually a zero-player game, meaning that its evolution is determined by its initial state, needing no input from human players. One interacts with the Game of Life by creating an initial configuration and observing how it evolves.

The algorithm is fairly small and can handle any kind of evolution like prey and predators in Spore.

What does that mean though?  I know what the Game of Life is -- it's a bunch of dots that appear or disappear based on their proximity to each other.  I don't see how it is related to Spore.

I guess you're saying that the game will evaluate the ecosystem on a regular basis, and then make simple calculations to determine the number of herbivores / carnivores in any particular area.  In other words, instead of AI for each individual creature, the whole ecosystem will be simulated abstractly.  Is that it?





Offline Ondaderthad

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2008, 09:00:16 am »
It's described in a lecture by W Wright and Brian Eno:
http://homemadenoize.com/2008/06/17/spore-and-eno-or-generative-music/

I't a one and a half hour video and the part they discuss Life is at around 20:00 but viewing the whole is really a good idea to understand it.

Everything in Spore is based around Life type systems.


Offline Hydromancerx

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Re: Definitive limit of Creatures per Planet?
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2008, 10:08:37 pm »

Also note that the T3 is locked.

Any idea when and how to unlocks them?

I am guessing if it reaches the middle of the bullseye you unlock T3.

What's the source for this?

From this picture.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 10:26:13 pm by Hydromancerx »