Author Topic: I want to play the original Spore.  (Read 78594 times)

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Offline Petike

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #105 on: June 27, 2008, 10:14:38 am »
People also seem to ignore there are plenty of features that have been added to the game since the initial demo as well.  Back when they were demoing it, player content distribution was going to be this mysterious transparent process that you had no say in, but now we have the Sporepedia and community that goes with it, Sporecasts, etc.  As for gameplay elements, we didn't know about epic creatures back at GDC 2005, or being able to edit music for your city's national anthem, etc.  And I'm sure there's more we still have yet to discover in the months to come.

It's silly to obsess over one or two negatives when the positives far outweigh it.
That's what I always say, once I even wrote a list of things that were added and cut out since the original demo:

Added:

-The armour/cloth editor
-The music editor
-The terrain editing tools (creating hills, rivers, oceans)
-The procedurally generated music
-The ability to reach any editor and phase from the menu
-The ability to make Religion-based civilizations
-The ability to play with a "baby" version of your race
-The ability to chose your home planet
-The ability to play in a non-hostile way (singing, dancing, making friends)
-The ability to leave your UFO and play as a single creature
-The detailed civilization phase gameplay (controlling spice nodes, harvesters, military/economic/ religious vehicles)
-The extreme planet types (like lava planets, ice planets, and even colorful, never-seen world)
-The various creature options such splitting projectiles, having limbs with several joints, etc.
-The age/tribal/random/alpha differences between the members of your race
-The epic creatures
-Sporepedia, and Sporecasts


Taken out:
-Water creatures

Quote from: MasterChiToes in "Spore was dumbed down"
Maybe the Sporons are the ones that got dumbed down?  ;D

Offline DarkDragon

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #106 on: June 27, 2008, 08:07:34 pm »
The animations and inner-workings of the game were fine that did not require additional expansions to flesh them out (though patches, sure). Which is what I was discussing in relation to the post I was referring to. His gripe was that "hey... these animations look better than the ones we have now! stupid!!!" so your honest theory is that EA told them to dumb down the animations and the basic (mechanic) fabrics of the game, So they can release an expansion later that touts "Now with less choppy animations! and better pathfinding too!". That, I find ridiculous.

You doubt they'll release expansions/updates that will improve that? I don't. Not that I care, I'm happy with what we have now.

Added:

-The armour/cloth editor
-The music editor
-The terrain editing tools (creating hills, rivers, oceans)
-The procedurally generated music
-The ability to reach any editor and phase from the menu
-The ability to make Religion-based civilizations
-The ability to play with a "baby" version of your race
-The ability to chose your home planet
-The ability to play in a non-hostile way (singing, dancing, making friends)
-The ability to leave your UFO and play as a single creature
-The detailed civilization phase gameplay (controlling spice nodes, harvesters, military/economic/ religious vehicles)
-The extreme planet types (like lava planets, ice planets, and even colorful, never-seen world)
-The various creature options such splitting projectiles, having limbs with several joints, etc.
-The age/tribal/random/alpha differences between the members of your race
-The epic creatures
-Sporepedia, and Sporecasts


Taken out:
-Water creatures
-Underwater bubble cities
-Flora editor
-Terrain editor
-Tribal hut editor

Fixed ;D
And I wont even bother answering to people who say the flora & terrain editors were never in because even later on we saw some screenshots of the flora editor (1 or 2), and at some point in 2006/2007 there were still videos that had them in the menu.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 08:09:43 pm by DarkDragon »
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Offline Doomsday

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2008, 08:12:30 pm »
Bubble Cities are on the fence. There were reports of a Domed City appearing in the demo that was help at that San Francisco Apple Store. It was on an inhospitable world, yes, but the fact that domed cities still seem to be in bodes well for domed cities being Placeable in water. If not what's the alternative? Floating Cities? If that's the case you'd have to add Floating Cities to the "Added" section.
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Offline DaMuncha

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #108 on: June 27, 2008, 08:17:20 pm »
Floating Cities... thats not a bad idea. Like that floating city from Star Wars, that'd be cool.

Offline Doomsday

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2008, 08:21:13 pm »
Floating Cities... thats not a bad idea. Like that floating city from Star Wars, that'd be cool.

I meant in water. Floating in Atmosphere wouldn't really be workable, especially not the way Star Wars portrayed it.
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Offline Logan Felipe

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #110 on: June 27, 2008, 08:26:48 pm »
Floating Cities... thats not a bad idea. Like that floating city from Star Wars, that'd be cool.

I meant in water. Floating in Atmosphere wouldn't really be workable, especially not the way Star Wars portrayed it.

I thought he was referring to Ahto City on Manaan...
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Offline DaMuncha

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #111 on: June 27, 2008, 08:33:12 pm »
Im talking about the floating city where Dath Vader says "I am your father" then Luke goes "Noooooooooooo ITS NOT TRUE" and falls down a hole. Ya know the 1. But yeah Manaan would be cool (though I got so sick of the music restarting every time you traveled anywhere on manaan).

Offline Doomsday

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #112 on: June 27, 2008, 08:43:35 pm »
Im talking about the floating city where Dath Vader says "I am your father" then Luke goes "Noooooooooooo ITS NOT TRUE" and falls down a hole. Ya know the 1. But yeah Manaan would be cool (though I got so sick of the music restarting every time you traveled anywhere on manaan).

My Star Wars trivia is a little behind, but wasn't that on an Imperial vessel? Didn't that take place, essentially, in space?

The only floating cities I can think of is Bespin (in air), Manaan (in water) and Kamino (In, but above Water).
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Offline Logan Felipe

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #113 on: June 27, 2008, 08:49:26 pm »
Im talking about the floating city where Dath Vader says "I am your father" then Luke goes "Noooooooooooo ITS NOT TRUE" and falls down a hole. Ya know the 1. But yeah Manaan would be cool (though I got so sick of the music restarting every time you traveled anywhere on manaan).

My Star Wars trivia is a little behind, but wasn't that on an Imperial vessel? Didn't that take place, essentially, in space?

The only floating cities I can think of is Bespin (in air), Manaan (in water) and Kamino (In, but above Water).

That floating city would be Cloud City. They were in the center shaft of the city (looked as though it was a wind tunnel designed for energy generation).
Cloud City was in Bespin's atmosphere. Flying cities have always been out, as they would introduce too many game mechanics problems.
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Offline Crowster

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #114 on: June 27, 2008, 08:55:27 pm »
The animations and inner-workings of the game were fine that did not require additional expansions to flesh them out (though patches, sure). Which is what I was discussing in relation to the post I was referring to. His gripe was that "hey... these animations look better than the ones we have now! stupid!!!" so your honest theory is that EA told them to dumb down the animations and the basic (mechanic) fabrics of the game, So they can release an expansion later that touts "Now with less choppy animations! and better pathfinding too!". That, I find ridiculous.

You doubt they'll release expansions/updates that will improve that? I don't. Not that I care, I'm happy with what we have now.

Added:

-The armour/cloth editor
-The music editor
-The terrain editing tools (creating hills, rivers, oceans)
-The procedurally generated music
-The ability to reach any editor and phase from the menu
-The ability to make Religion-based civilizations
-The ability to play with a "baby" version of your race
-The ability to chose your home planet
-The ability to play in a non-hostile way (singing, dancing, making friends)
-The ability to leave your UFO and play as a single creature
-The detailed civilization phase gameplay (controlling spice nodes, harvesters, military/economic/ religious vehicles)
-The extreme planet types (like lava planets, ice planets, and even colorful, never-seen world)
-The various creature options such splitting projectiles, having limbs with several joints, etc.
-The age/tribal/random/alpha differences between the members of your race
-The epic creatures
-Sporepedia, and Sporecasts


Taken out:
-Water creatures
-Underwater bubble cities
-Flora editor
-Terrain editor
-Tribal hut editor

Fixed ;D
And I wont even bother answering to people who say the flora & terrain editors were never in because even later on we saw some screenshots of the flora editor (1 or 2), and at some point in 2006/2007 there were still videos that had them in the menu.

Sorry, DarkDragon, but I'm going to have to take issue with your last two corrections. "Terrain editor" was never mentioned other than the UFO, which is still in. There was a talk about the development of Spore that included a developer tool for designing planet types, but it was never claimed to be an editor that we would get our hands on, and so does not count as something being "taken out."

As for the hut editor, that was something hinted at, not something promised. The way I see it, they replaced the hut editor in tribal with the armor editor. I don't count that as being taken out since, way back when Spore was fresh and new, I had my doubts about that ever being in there at all. People back then had a tendency to assume, which leads to today's "Spore has been dumbed down this is terrible!" type posts.

Petike, a few of your "added features" actually HAVE been there since the beginning. Terrain editing tools, religion based civilizations (though back then they called it "culture"). Playing in a non-hostile way ... herbivores were always a possibility, they just gave herbivores some actual gameplay. Extreme planet types and limbs with several joints were in there as well. I agree with your position, though. Focus on what's been added, and what's in there, not what's supposedly been "removed."

The game has been three and a half years in the making, and that's only counting after we first got word of the project. Considering how long they've been taking to "get it right," everything that has been compromised or changed has been done so with a grain of salt. People complained about how long the game was taking, then turn around and complain about how many features were left on the cutting room floor. Would we rather get it a year and a half sooner, half as done as it is now, or a year and a half later, but with more goodies? People go, "If Spore is nearly done why don't they just release it now!?" but when it's closer to release, people go, "Why didn't they finish it and add this or that feature!?" It's all very tiring.

Offline Doomsday

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #115 on: June 27, 2008, 08:59:46 pm »
That floating city would be Cloud City. They were in the center shaft of the city (looked as though it was a wind tunnel designed for energy generation).
Cloud City was in Bespin's atmosphere. Flying cities have always been out, as they would introduce too many game mechanics problems.

I knew the name of the city, but I was naming planets not cities. I didn't remember where that scene took place, as I've not watched the movies in some time. Still I never did like the idea of Aerial Cities. Wholly unrealistic, even for Sci-Fi. Though, Star Wars isn't Sci-Fi (Sci-Fantasy, if not just "Fantasy" is more like it). Anyway, to prevent getting even farther off topic. We'll stop this there.

Anyway, yea. They added more than they removed, and they delivered on a bulk of their ideas. They've also created some very robust and in-depth tools for use to use. People who've, ummm *ahem* taken apart... the CC have praised it for being exceptionally robust and well planned. Look at the Spore API thread to see what I mean.
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Offline Feigro

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #116 on: June 28, 2008, 06:34:53 am »
You doubt they'll release expansions/updates that will improve that? I don't. Not that I care, I'm happy with what we have now.

No. I'm doubting they reached a point of quality and then intentionally scaled it back so they could put a patch or update on reserve. For example, take all of the clipping issues with the CC. If they reached a point in development where all of that is removed, I highly doubt they'd not release the game at that quality solely so they could release a patch or expansion with those fixes as a feature.

Will they improve things for the future? Sure. Have they already done so and just decided to remove those improvements on the basic fabrics of the game? I highly doubt it.

But, you'll have your opinion anyway. So further debating the issue is absolutely irrelevent.

Sorry, DarkDragon, but I'm going to have to take issue with your last two corrections. "Terrain editor" was never mentioned other than the UFO, which is still in. There was a talk about the development of Spore that included a developer tool for designing planet types, but it was never claimed to be an editor that we would get our hands on, and so does not count as something being "taken out."

As for the hut editor, that was something hinted at, not something promised. The way I see it, they replaced the hut editor in tribal with the armor editor. I don't count that as being taken out since, way back when Spore was fresh and new, I had my doubts about that ever being in there at all. People back then had a tendency to assume, which leads to today's "Spore has been dumbed down this is terrible!" type posts.

This video displays both a "terrain editor" and "hut editor" in the first 20 seconds. Meaning they were either planned, being designed, implemented, and in any case of those options, eventually removed or transformed (U.F.O. counts as terrain editor, imo).

You're technically right, though. The Spore team never touted Terrain or Hut editors as features, per se. This simply goes along with what I've been saying about people having the ability to follow a game through out it's development. Ultimately people will be dissapointed because Development is about trimming things down to what you need to make the game. Not packing in as many features as humanly possible.

Games start huge, and ship at about 20-40% of what was imagined. It has nothing to do with evil corporations or bad planning either. In nearly every presentation Will gives, he usually talks about that sort of thing. How they take the "best 10%" of something or "the best 3rd or 4th". It's simply an aspect of design and development.

There's a quote that pretty much sums it all up, really; "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away" - Antoine de Saint-Exupery 

Will once cited a japanese(?) proverb that pretty much says the exact same thing. Though I can't remember it at the moment.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 07:08:01 am by Feigro »
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Offline Logan Felipe

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #117 on: June 28, 2008, 10:29:33 am »

There's a quote that pretty much sums it all up, really; "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away" - Antoine de Saint-Exupery 

Will once cited a japanese(?) proverb that pretty much says the exact same thing. Though I can't remember it at the moment.


Because after all, if you don't, you won't have any percentage left to make money off of later in a sequel (glares at Obsidian and Pandemic for KotOR II and the Battlefront series, respectively. ::) )
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Offline Pietoro

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #118 on: June 28, 2008, 07:13:35 pm »
Not true, I've been following the game since the beginning, hyped about it and I still like it and haven't been disappointed once.

Me too, the game has always looked cute to me, ever since the beginning. It was never meant to be a gritty, realistic thing. It's a GAME based on evolution, not a evolution SIMULATOR. There's a difference between the two.

One the one hand, I see some people saying they're sad because the simulation part of it was somehow 'cheapened' because there isn't blood in the game anymore... I don't see how those two things are even related. Shouldn't the important part be the gameplay?

All the basic frameworks are in.. so they can build upon those foundations with expansions easily. There was nothing permanently lost from the original demos that can't be brought back over time.

And yeah, pure simulators do badly... anyone hear ever played El-Fish? Maxis' old now-abandonware fish genetics game that came out in the 90s. I thought it was great, 90% of the rest of the world thought it was a stupid, pointless thing, and it bombed. Who cares about genetics of fish and breeding, even if the game tries pretty amazing things (for it's time)? People like us who loved the SimLife games are not the majority, big-budget pure sim games just aren't economically feasible. Be glad Spore may pave the way for more of them in the future, because of its (hopeful) success.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 07:21:58 pm by Pietoro »
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Offline DaMuncha

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Re: I want to play the original Spore.
« Reply #119 on: June 28, 2008, 07:29:08 pm »
I was watching the 06 vid and it looks pretty much like it does now. 05 was a demo, 06 was the game. So in retrospect, they didnt change anything. They just didnt add certain parts due to design. So the game wasnt designed to be realistic from the start I guess.