Author Topic: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...  (Read 51565 times)

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Offline Yokto

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2008, 08:09:11 am »
Torrents do not work that way. Because torrents are pretty much just a link (And do not really contain copyrighted information in it self) is what makes it so hard to close down some torrent sites like Pirate Bay. (In Sweden is not illegal to link to media. It is illegal to directly distribute however.)

In USA you however have to watch out if you running a torrent site. Linking (or just pointing out) where you can get illegal copies is illegal.

Most those that use torrents do also share. Very few do not and many clients have to function to block those that only leach. So if you do use a torrent containing copyrighted martial you are likely to brake copyright law.
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Offline MisterBibs

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2008, 09:53:08 am »
Oh hai, you must be new here.
Stop trolling. Thanks.

The hope that this will happen to the Sims 3 and other franchises that "**** over their fans" is trolling, since it makes anyone with more than three brain cells angry for its sheer silliness.

Because 1.7 million copies of Spore were pirated, DRM will get worse.

Quote
I CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT

Then wait until you have the funds to pay for it.

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I JUST WANNA TRY IT FOR A FEW DAYS.

Then pay to try it.

Offline Yokto

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2008, 10:32:18 am »
Or one can just brake the law >_>
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Offline DarkDragon

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #108 on: December 21, 2008, 01:20:42 pm »
Oh hai, you must be new here.
Stop trolling. Thanks.

The hope that this will happen to the Sims 3 and other franchises that "**** over their fans" is trolling, since it makes anyone with more than three brain cells angry for its sheer silliness.

Because 1.7 million copies of Spore were pirated, DRM will get worse.

Quote
I CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT

Then wait until you have the funds to pay for it.

Quote
I JUST WANNA TRY IT FOR A FEW DAYS.

Then pay to try it.

Yeah, not everyone has a place where they can rent games to try, in fact renting games itself is stupid, if I wanna pay to try it then I'll just friggin' buy it... Some games nowadays don't even have demos anymore.

And most of those "pirated" copies of Spore don't count because the people who downloaded them also bought the game.
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Offline Jaleho

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #109 on: December 21, 2008, 08:18:55 pm »
Oh hai, you must be new here.
Stop trolling. Thanks.

The hope that this will happen to the Sims 3 and other franchises that "**** over their fans" is trolling, since it makes anyone with more than three brain cells angry for its sheer silliness.

Because 1.7 million copies of Spore were pirated, DRM will get worse.

Quote
I CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT

Then wait until you have the funds to pay for it.

Quote
I JUST WANNA TRY IT FOR A FEW DAYS.

Then pay to try it.

If you know of a service where you can pay to play the full version of a PC game for a limited amount of time for a limited fee, I'd love to know about it. You can rent console games, not so much with PC software (because they can't prove you uninstalled it, or made copies). Some companies do offer demos, but if the demo is not representative of the rest of the game, it's kind of a rip-off... unless (in Spore's case) the money spent on the demo is better than the money spent on the full game. CC was the only part of Spore worth paying for.

Offline Protoavis

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #110 on: December 21, 2008, 11:36:46 pm »
CC was the only part of Spore worth paying for.

Which I got for free, hurray for living in Australia where it was handed out free with the newspaper :D :D :D
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Offline Yokto

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2008, 07:51:56 am »
I like the other editors to.
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Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2008, 06:57:23 pm »
If you can't rent it or demo it then type in some keywords, Bring up some reviews, Look for some videos. Do a little research. Doing all that will tell you whether its worth it to buy or not.

And actually yes their are a few sites that let you download the full game and play it for an hour, After that you have to buy it if you want to keep playing it. I actually bought Evil genius from a site like that.

Offline Uroboros

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2008, 08:15:17 pm »
Because 1.7 million copies of Spore were pirated, DRM will get worse.
And when the DRM gets worse, the percentage of pirated copies will rise further.
Did the DRM prevent piracy at all? No.
Did the DRM cause a rise in piracy? Yes.
Did the DRM inconvenience legal owners? Yes.
Was all of this easily predictable prior to the DRM implementation? Yes.
They are presented with a simple choice : Adjust tactics, or face a growing divide between actual sales and pirated copies.

So yes, the decision-makers essentially chose to punish their fans whilst shooting themselves in the foot. The reason I called you a troll, was because that entire post I referenced was nothing but blatant flamebait. I know people get a bit rabid on the anti-EA subject, and the amount of frothing against Spore in general makes even my eyes roll, but that doesn't weaken the point at hand.

If you can't rent it or demo it then type in some keywords, Bring up some reviews, Look for some videos. Do a little research. Doing all that will tell you whether its worth it to buy or not.
Doing all that didn't work for The Movies. Or Gears of War. Or Jade Empire. Or Tekken 4. Or Prey. Or Pariah. Or Farcry. Or Fable. Despite the 'tastes may vary' side of it, reviews tend to have that "default 7.0" thing going on, some tend to suspiciously find in favour of large companies regardless of the game in question, and videos can be very deceptive. Taking Spore for example, the reviews could convince you that it is absolutely terrible, or really good. The 'demo' being the creature creator is far from representative of the final game, the videos barely skim the surface, the rabid for/against opinions would only serve to confuse, and once again you find yourself at the same position : At a gambling table with barely a tip.

A game rental service for the PC would be a step towards preventing piracy. I would say a big step, but given it would require downloads in the scale of gigs, people would be tempted to crack it after the rental period is up (after the burned bandwidth/time). A rental service for the PC would end up being much like Steam, with a way to deactivate games automatically when the rental period is up, but clients can be cracked too, and other programs/patches can be used to counter deactivation.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 04:57:38 am by Uroboros »

Offline MisterBibs

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #114 on: December 23, 2008, 10:53:25 am »
Quote
Did the DRM prevent piracy at all? No.
Did the DRM cause a rise in piracy? Yes.
Did the DRM inconvenience legal owners? Yes.
Was all of this easily predictable prior to the DRM implementation? Yes.
They are presented with a simple choice : Adjust tactics, or face a growing divide between actual sales and pirated copies.

DRM didn't cause a rise in piracy. Piracy causes DRM. Gamers who want publishers to not treat them like criminals and pirates, and then act like crminals and pirates, cause DRM to increase. And because gamers have shown with Spore that they aren't to be trusted, we'll get harder DRM.

DRM didn't inconvenience the majority of legal owners. Nerds with an axe to grind against EA and DRM? Oh, it inconvenienced them.

You state "adjust tactics". What is the tactic you believe they should use? Cite historical examples (doesn't have to be PC related) with concrete evidence that the tactics you'll cite consistently and repeatedly reduce piracy of a product.

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the amount of frothing against Spore in general makes even my eyes roll, but that doesn't weaken the point at hand.

Quite untrue. The frothing against Spore and DRM undermines their beliefs to the point that I'm more likely to believe in the Illuminati than believe what they say. Trust me, if I could reach through the internet and pat the heads (hair-mussing-up optional) to everyone I hear whining about DRM, I would. But I can't.

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At a gambling table with barely a tip.

Like someone else said, Fool Me Once, Shame On You, Fool Me Twice, Shame On Me. If you got "burned" by a product for whatever reason, you don't buy the next one.

Of course, this does show the fundamental issue: Most people are still buying the products you refuse to. I keep reading from some people that they think Spore's piracy is going to be the one that tells publishers to knock it off. Just like the DRM on the Sims expansions that froze the game if you were using a pirated copy. Just like Titan Quest crashing early in the game if you have a pirated copy. I imagine whatever DRM Sims 3 has will have people going "hopefully THIS GAME will be the one that tells publishers to knock it off"!.

The only way to get publishers to stop using such strict DRM is to prove, as a collective group, that we're not going to download games we haven't paid for. But we won't, because people who do it try very hard to justify pirating. Either its a Robin-Hood-esque Stealing-From-The-Rich, Everest-Style Because-Its-There, or simple "I don't want to spend money."

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A game rental service for the PC would be a step towards preventing piracy. I would say a big step, but given it would require downloads in the scale of gigs, people would be tempted to crack it after the rental period is up

Well, that's one of your tactics inevitably down the drain. One only needs to look at any sort of cracks/keygen site to see that anything locked by a password or something is inevitably - and often, quickly - bypassed.

Do you have another option? Again, historical proof of consistent and repeatable piracy reduction.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 10:58:20 am by MisterBibs »

Offline Arachoid

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #115 on: December 23, 2008, 12:03:26 pm »
You state "adjust tactics". What is the tactic you believe they should use? Cite historical examples (doesn't have to be PC related) with concrete evidence that the tactics you'll cite consistently and repeatedly reduce piracy of a product.

What historical examples? The rumrunners or moonshiners? This is a new problem, piracy in the millions over the Internet, and DRM is the misguided attempt at solving it.

I don't say that because of any consumer rights-based beliefs or anything, but because developing this crappy DRM costs money, and I love money.

But how, historically, has it been successful at all? It has never prevented games or music from being pirated, it just annoys legitimate users and maybe stops newbie pirates who try to remove it themselves (but later go download from a torrent or something).

And you may count me among the scores of those who pirated Spore and then uninstalled it after buying Spore legitimately just to bolster the numbers.
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Offline Uroboros

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #116 on: December 23, 2008, 12:20:50 pm »
DRM didn't cause a rise in piracy.
Oh no? I guess all those people threatening to pirate it instead of buy it because of the DRM must have just had a sudden unannounced change of mind then? Its not like there was an uproar about it. Oh wait...

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Piracy causes DRM.
And a too-restrictive DRM causes piracy.

Quote
Gamers who want publishers to not treat them like criminals and pirates, and then act like crminals and pirates, cause DRM to increase. And because gamers have shown with Spore that they aren't to be trusted, we'll get harder DRM.
...and as the DRM gets more draconian, the legal sales will be further overshadowed by the number of pirated copies.

Quote
You state "adjust tactics". What is the tactic you believe they should use? Cite historical examples (doesn't have to be PC related) with concrete evidence that the tactics you'll cite consistently and repeatedly reduce piracy of a product.
Uhm, no. I don't have to cite examples of alternatives, to affirm the fact that the DRM was responsible for an increase in piracy. It's a reasonable assertion given the reaction of the fanbase and general PC gamer crowds, when the DRM was announced. As for concrete evidence? You expect me to pull undeniably solid evidence out of my ass. After all, forumgoers keep a full stock of sources that are held by law to tell the truth, right? Even if I was in the administration of large businesses with well-grounded sources to show you, there is little that cannot be disputed. Still, for the sake of arguement, compare Oblivion with its lack of anti-piracy measures, compared to Bioshock, with its install-limiter. You can always expect a certain level of piracy regardless of additional factors, a sort of 'casual baseline', but when you start making the prospect of buying a copy unappealing, people start turning to alternatives. Those sales start converting to pirated downloads. Its not a matter of preventing pirates, its a matter of preventing customers wanting to pirate. Time and time again, it has been shown that you simply can't stop pirates. It takes ten times longer to build a wall than to tear it down. You release a game, and no matter what you do, it is ready to be pirated within days.

It comes down to basic business sense. Do you use a harsher DRM to extend the uncracked time by 4 hours, whilst causing a substantial amount of customers to pirating it, put off by the thought of the limitations (whether they turn out to be as bad as they sounded or not)? Or do you accept that it is going to get pirated regardless of what measures you put in place, and offset the piracy damage, by ensuring you don't drive away that extra slice of your willing customers?

Quote
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Like someone else said, Fool Me Once, Shame On You, Fool Me Twice, Shame On Me. If you got "burned" by a product for whatever reason, you don't buy the next one.
Thats a great idea... if only every game was part of a running series, eh? If you go by genre, you're only going to get burned four or five times before you stop buying games altogether. Or you could just... y'know... do the entire demo/borrow/piracy thing to test it out, and buy informed. Some people simply can't afford to play the guessing game for more than a years worth of purchases.

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The only way to get publishers to stop using such strict DRM is to prove, as a collective group, that we're not going to download games we haven't paid for. But we won't, because people who do it try very hard to justify pirating. Either its a Robin-Hood-esque Stealing-From-The-Rich, Everest-Style Because-Its-There, or simple "I don't want to spend money."
I disagree, I think the correlation between a DRMs invasiveness/strictness over a legal owner, and pirated copies, is another way to get publishers to reconsider. You can't expect people to act as a collective group, simply because they aren't. Whilst they are all customers (or potential customers/pirates), they are also spread globally, with no connection to each other. You could say that the best way to stop publishers creating rehashed garbage is simply to stop buying the rehashed garbage, but it doesn't matter how idealistic you do or do not buy, there will be plenty of people willing to fork over money for whatever polished turd gets vomited out next. Saying the only way to go about this is for everyone to stop pirating, is like saying the only way to stop the laws getting tighter and tighter, is for every civilian to stop breaking the law. If there is something wrong with the method at hand, it should be looked into, regardless of whether the need for a measure still exists. Otherwise its like resolutely trying to hammer a square peg through a circular hole, and refusing to rethink it because the hole still needs to be plugged. The only unified body in this, is the developer, the owner of the software. The only real changes in this, will come from their actions/reactions. Piracy will always exist, and not as an 'if'. They can either grasp the situation and try to figure out a better way forwards, or they can make a gamble with a stronger DRM and risk increasing the amount of pirated copies up further.

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Do you have another option? Again, historical proof of consistent and repeatable piracy reduction.
Yes, stop driving your customer base away would be a fine start to curb the edge of it. Customer support isn't too much to ask, either, in place of an automated, context-based response. Being able to play the game without worrying about activations, install amounts, online launchers and non-optional additionals (like starforce, etc), is a real plus. Not being forced to uninstall other programs to make it work. They 'historically' make people less inclined to pirate it instead of buy it.

Offline DarkDragon

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #117 on: December 23, 2008, 01:19:59 pm »
If you can't rent it or demo it then type in some keywords, Bring up some reviews, Look for some videos. Do a little research. Doing all that will tell you whether its worth it to buy or not.

And actually yes their are a few sites that let you download the full game and play it for an hour, After that you have to buy it if you want to keep playing it. I actually bought Evil genius from a site like that.

How is that any different from what I do? If I don't like the game I delete it so I never get to play it more than an hour, if I do like it and play through it I end up buying it just to have all the cool stuff that the legal version provides so either way it's the same thing.
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Offline Jaleho

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2008, 02:01:43 pm »
If you can't rent it or demo it then type in some keywords, Bring up some reviews, Look for some videos. Do a little research. Doing all that will tell you whether its worth it to buy or not.

And actually yes their are a few sites that let you download the full game and play it for an hour, After that you have to buy it if you want to keep playing it. I actually bought Evil genius from a site like that.

How is that any different from what I do? If I don't like the game I delete it so I never get to play it more than an hour, if I do like it and play through it I end up buying it just to have all the cool stuff that the legal version provides so either way it's the same thing.

Exactly. I'll admit it right here -- I purchased Spore, but I pirated "Cute and Creepy". I wanted to see whether having that pack changed how *I* play, and no video or review could possibly tell me that.

Do you want to know what happened the second I installed C&C? I lost the ability to upload any of my creations to Sporepedia, whether they used the pack or not, whether they were creature or building or otherwise. Now considering how big of the game is sharing creations (since it certainly isn't "achieve this goal for the 50th time") I have been limited in what I can do with the game. I'm assuming the first person to use the cracked serial is allowed to upload creations. Anyone else the server says "wait, this has already been used. No access for you, pirate!". But the software itself has no clue whether it's been registered before or not.

So I now have three choices:
1. Keep playing the crippled version of Spore. Not as fun, because I can't show off my new Cute and Creepy creations.
2. Delete Spore and reinstall WITHOUT C&C. I'm back to making things without the new parts which I didn't pay for.
3. Delete and reinstall with a PURCHASED version of C&C. Then if I still can't upload creations, I complain to EA.

I don't play a lot of MMORPGs, but do they have problems with pirated accounts? I'm sure I can find a copy of the boxed game on a torrent, but I can't play the game without an account, right? And you have to pay to play. So unless you use a stolen credit card or hack someone else's account, that pirated game is useless.

Why not do something similar to Spore? yes, I'm advocating a monthly fee -- but an OPTIONAL monthly fee. Like the game as is? Congrats, play it to the end of time. Want all the new add-ons they're producing? Get an account for a monthly fee, and you have to have internet access to play it.

The problem is this "all or nothing" business model. Or gameplay, too. Why is it so hard to make a game that casual, hard-core, broadband AND internet-less people can all play? When did "this feature is optional" go out of style, and the "forcing of everyone who plays a game to play the same way" come about? Give people different experiences based on what they want to pay and how they want to play, just don't force out everyone who doesn't fit one model.

EA would kill two birds with one stone if they just didn't make Maxis design SOME kind of MMO element to Spore. Not as a replacement for the current system, but as an addition everyone would want to be a part of. Pirated copies wouldn't be allowed in, those who don't like it don't have to come in, and the rest of us would get awesome MMO gameplay and be forced to pay for it. How is that bad?

Offline Protoavis

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2008, 02:22:05 pm »

I don't play a lot of MMORPGs, but do they have problems with pirated accounts? I'm sure I can find a copy of the boxed game on a torrent, but I can't play the game without an account, right? And you have to pay to play. So unless you use a stolen credit card or hack someone else's account, that pirated game is useless.


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