Topic: Maxis reacts on "science vs. cute" debate

[gec05]

I really think you need to drop the whole "Chris Hecker the Indie advocate" thing and perhaps consider his views may have changed since then.

[Koronii]

I think there is still a misunderstanding about Chris Hecker.

A lot of people were mad at him, because of the original posts about him starting up the 'cute team'.
But it wasn't just this that caused problems.

Chris Hecker is a hypocrite.

He was originally an advocate for indie games ('independently made games', for those of you who aren't familiar with the term).

And I think Jaleho put it best in another topic:

And you know what drives me insane trying to understand? Chris Hecker is one of the driving people in the world of INDIE Gaming... the very people focused on new, untested, potentially unsuccessful ideas. A major figure in the world of "who cares if it makes a lot of money -- we need fresh ideas that aren't Halo and Madden."

But then I remember Hecker never shipped a game before Spore, that he said he had to give up indie games to "sell out" and make an income, and it all makes sense...

He believed in Indie Gaming, then Indie Gaming let him down, and he gave in to the almighty dollar and the game industry. Because HE couldn't succeed in indie games, he decided "if you can't beat them, join them" and gave in to the "pander to the dumbed-down masses" mentality.

I think he steered Spore away from its "extreme" heading, because he felt (from his own experiences) that Spore would be doomed to failure if it continued down that path.

And even still, Chris Hecker was the one to state in a GDC 2007 conference:

"The Wii is a piece of $#&%!" Hecker began his talk, which was called "Fear of a Wii Planet." He blasted a few bars of Public Enemy to set the tone. Hecker said the Wii is nothing more than two GameCubes stuck together with duct tape, and that the console isn't powerful enough to provide the next-gen experience he has been waiting for.

Although he stated the system is "severely underpowered," Hecker noted that he wasn't simply referring to the Wii's graphical capabilities. He wants to spend a console's CPU making games more intelligent, and he has found the Wii doesn't have the power to process things like complicated AI.

Which implies that without the best graphics and the best CPU, good games can't be made.
Which implies that good games need the best graphics and use a lot of memory.

Which then implies that indie development, something of which he was one of the largest advocates of, is completely and utterly futile.


He may deserve thanks for designing a procedural system for Spore, but that doesn't negate the fact that he is a complete hypocrite and deserves the backlashing.

Just because he failed at what he set out to do, does NOT mean that he should set out to do the exact opposite.
It reminds me of people who sit and drink every night because they hate their lives, when in reality they hate their lives because they sit there and drink every night.

He deserves the criticism. He needs to get his head on straight.
Hopefully he read a lot of people's comments about him, and hopefully he'll realize that he's made a lot of mistakes and will think more clearly about what he actually believes. Right now, He is a sell out.

Blulightning, I wholeheartedly suggest that before you post, you look at what you have typed up, and make sure that it doesn't make you look like a fool.

While I know personally that people are inherently different from their online persona, it is taking a great leap of faith to keep me from thinking you are a malign fool, who can take offense at the smallest trifles, and whose favorite insult is 'hypocrite'.

Chris Hecker was being denounced as the Satan who perverted the Holy Truth of the Realistic Spore, in a immature and small minded way. How does making a totally unrelated statement make you deserve to be slandered on an entirely different matter?

[TDKenyon]

[Blulightning's post]

Blulightning, I wholeheartedly suggest that before you post, you look at what you have typed up, and make sure that it doesn't make you look like a fool.

While I know personally that people are inherently different from their online persona, it is taking a great leap of faith to keep me from thinking you are a malign fool, who can take offense at the smallest trifles, and whose favorite insult is 'hypocrite'.

Chris Hecker was being denounced as the Satan who perverted the Holy Truth of the Realistic Spore, in a immature and small minded way. How does making a totally unrelated statement make you deserve to be slandered on an entirely different matter?

While I don't care for this whole subject (thus I don't agree or disagree with anyone), your post didn't actually say anything; you simply bashed Blulightning. There was no validation for why you think he's wrong. At least Blulightning gave reasons for why he thinks he's a hypocrite. He also specifically said he doesn't really care about the "science vs cute" debate, which would invalidate your "Chris Hecker was being denounced..." statement as Blulightning doesn't believe Hecker "perverted the Holy Truth of the Realistic Spore". As I said, you simply bashed him.

[Koronii]

 *sigh* I apologize, I have a hard time getting my meaning across, even when I'm in a good mood. What I meant, was that Blulightning, appeared to my eye, to have decided that he hates Chris Hecker for no apparent reason, and him saying that Chris Hecker deserved to be hated for something that wasn't his fault, seemed to my mind, to be outright indifference to his feelings.

[Blulightning]

I really think you need to drop the whole "Chris Hecker the Indie advocate" thing and perhaps consider his views may have changed since then.

Yeah I know people change. Everyone changes.
I was trying to post on why OTHER people don't like him, but I obviously dislike him so my opinion was reflected in what I said.

But I posted that as why a lot more people were easily blaming Hecker for everything that happened.
That would not have happened if he were not someone people admired before, and someone that became a huge hypocrite to the video game industry.

...
Chris Hecker was being denounced as the Satan who perverted the Holy Truth of the Realistic Spore, in a immature and small minded way. How does making a totally unrelated statement make you deserve to be slandered on an entirely different matter?

What I posted, shouldn't make me look like a "fool" but I can see where you're getting that from.
I posted things more strongly than I needed to.
I didn't mean to add to this "We blame Chris Hecker for Spore!" thing... on the contrary.
I actually knew from the beginning that he didn't cause Spore to become 'cute' and stray from 'science.'

Instead, what I MEANT was that he has been receiving a small blacklash from the community already, for all the stupid things he has said and done. (Example: Saying the Wii is a "piece of %#!$" when obviously it appeals to a mass market of consumers)
What I meant to IMPLY, but stupidly I said very bluntly, was that it was his own fault that he became the scapegoat for Spore.
But it was those feelings, along with the original post from the 'intern', that caused the hate to snowball into a hate-fest.

I was only trying to explain what Hecker REALLY did to cause such a ... 'upset in the community.'
Instead, I interjected my personal feelings into the matter. I shouldn't have done that.

Basically to sum it all up: I believe Hecker became the scapegoat for Spore because of other things he has done within the video game industry.
Which made a lot of people more willing to believe that he really did intentionally derail Spore.

[Lippy]

He deserves the criticism. He needs to get his head on straight.
Hopefully he read a lot of people's comments about him, and hopefully he'll realize that he's made a lot of mistakes and will think more clearly about what he actually believes. Right now, He is a sell out.

So, I was working in indie games for, like, eight years, and my wife was basically paying the mortgage. She kinda had the high-powered, executive job. And then, we had a baby, and she decided: "Well, I'm quitting. It's your turn to actually work." And I was like "Uh-oh! I guess I'm going to have to make some money." Indie games don't pay that well.

That hypocritical sellout!  He should have left his wife and kid to starve so he could continue making indie games in order to make random people on the internet like him better.   

I'm sure a bunch of angry internet tough guys are going to sway him to quit Maxis and make his wife go back to work so he can follow his ideals.   

[DarkPlasma]

"And you know what drives me insane trying to understand? Chris Hecker is one of the driving people in the world of INDIE Gaming... the very people focused on new, untested, potentially unsuccessful ideas. A major figure in the world of "who cares if it makes a lot of money -- we need fresh ideas that aren't Halo and Madden."
But then I remember Hecker never shipped a game before Spore, that he said he had to give up indie games to "sell out" and make an income, and it all makes sense...

Hecker was the main man behind the procedural animations, I believe. Find me another game that uses procedural generation like Spore does, then come back to us about your rant that he's selling out.

"And even still, Chris Hecker was the one to state in a GDC 2007 conference:

"The Wii is a piece of $#&%!" Hecker began his talk, which was called "Fear of a Wii Planet." He blasted a few bars of Public Enemy to set the tone. Hecker said the Wii is nothing more than two GameCubes stuck together with duct tape, and that the console isn't powerful enough to provide the next-gen experience he has been waiting for.

Although he stated the system is "severely underpowered," Hecker noted that he wasn't simply referring to the Wii's graphical capabilities. He wants to spend a console's CPU making games more intelligent, and he has found the Wii doesn't have the power to process things like complicated AI.

Which implies that without the best graphics and the best CPU, good games can't be made.
Which implies that good games need the best graphics and use a lot of memory.

Which then implies that indie development, something of which he was one of the largest advocates of, is completely and utterly futile.

1: The above quote even says he was talking about the speed of the console, not the graphical capabilities.
2: The thought that indie games can't make use of more powerful machines is absolute rubbish.

Also, he retracted the comment about a Wii being two Gamecubes later.

[Spore-addict]

Sometimes it seems that this forum is just kids.

I will stand on the middelground here.

Chris heckler was a big figure within indie games...I take your word for it.

But that does not mean he was going strictly for the science approach.

There are like a ton of hard thing with the science approach if it was going to be pretty in a grahpic sence and not a ton of bugs..

Maybe next versions will feature more freedom.

Here comes my kid remark.

Chris heckler has a boss that is named will wrigth. At the end of the day Will wrigth takes all the decisions. It is just like in real life on the job. I guess some in here do not know what it is like to work and not go to school. There is no democracy it is a hiearchy where he says what you do. You can argue but still you do what the boss tells you or you are fired.

Chris heckler was forced to do this. Yes many spoiled kids in here things that you just leave the wife or something bull**** like that but the reality is that you do not decide. And please do not believe that a guy in a marriage is the one who decides things regarding family stuff...WRONG. That is female area...and not up for discussion.

Blame will Wright for this skindeep game and not chris heckler. Blame where the blame should go.

The game has sold 1.5 or 2 mil. copies, The number is not clear but it is not a succes. Many big gameshows spore was elected best game of the show. almost every show since 2005 and then it sells a ****ty number like that....sadly.

Just look on these forums...the activity has DROPPED like a stone. Will 2 million matter if the number playing it now is 50.000.  Will an cute and creepy pack do anything...not likely. What if you do not buy it, will you be able to see the stuff?

Another expansion pack will not change it much. The majority of people has been dissapointed over the ultra skindeep gameplay. It is just a mile wide and one inch deep. One playthrough and you will not try it anymore...

Spore is what it is. And that is not something the majority of gamers, players , whatever you call the entire bunch likes.

[DarkPlasma]

Here comes my kid remark.

Chris heckler has a boss that is named will wrigth. At the end of the day Will wrigth takes all the decisions. It is just like in real life on the job. I guess some in here do not know what it is like to work and not go to school. There is no democracy it is a hiearchy where he says what you do. You can argue but still you do what the boss tells you or you are fired.

Chris heckler was forced to do this. Yes many spoiled kids in here things that you just leave the wife or something bull**** like that but the reality is that you do not decide. And please do not believe that a guy in a marriage is the one who decides things regarding family stuff...WRONG. That is female area...and not up for discussion.

Blame will Wright for this skindeep game and not chris heckler. Blame where the blame should go.

The game has sold 1.5 or 2 mil. copies, The number is not clear but it is not a succes. Many big gameshows spore was elected best game of the show. almost every show since 2005 and then it sells a ****ty number like that....sadly.

Kid remark indeed. Not only is it crude, but also rather wrong.
1: Game developers, unlike regular workplaces, normally work on group meetings to decide how things will be, with the boss being the one that keeps things together; while the boss does have extra leverage, he's not the one that makes all the decisions.
2: 2 million copies sold in two months is considered very successful. Heck, one million sold in a lifetime is considered successful for some games.
3: "Female Area"? "Ultra Skindeep Gameplay"? "One Playthrough"? I do hope you were trying to badly mock what you think a kid would say there.

[Snork]

Heckler? Lol.
Kiddy remark indeed.

[Protoavis]

Cant we just start vilifying Will for developing this piece of crap that deviates so very much from the original concept he painted? It's like he intentionally made the worst possible game out of the concept and I don't believe anyone with over a quarter of a brain could do that accidentally.

I want my time and money back now please.

[Jaleho]

Cant we just start vilifying Will for developing this piece of crap that deviates so very much from the original concept he painted? It's like he intentionally made the worst possible game out of the concept and I don't believe anyone with over a quarter of a brain could do that accidentally.

I want my time and money back now please.

I'll bite.

So Will, when does "SimMadden" go gold?

[Null]

I want my time and money back now please.

Oh, no. Should I call the Whaambulance?

[gec05]

Cant we just start vilifying Will for developing this piece of crap that deviates so very much from the original concept he painted?

Can you verify that your concept of the game back in 05 is the same as Will's?

I'm sorry, but that was a lame excuse.

[Jaleho]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/11/05/