Author Topic: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down  (Read 30925 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hydromancerx

  • Master of Orion
  • *****
  • Posts: 12394
  • Klaatu Barada Nikto!
    • View Profile
    • Sagan 4
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 11:29:38 pm »
Hydro, that would be a horrible idea.  They would essentially be making two different games and selling them as one.  It would either require double the resources to produce the game or the quality of each respective title would drop drastically.

At this point, an expansion pack turning the game into everything we envisioned it to be is also out of the question, I think.  Expansion packs add content, not change the very fundamentals of the game.

Well it could be like Sim City vs Sim Town. Sim City was for more of the hardcore gamers while Sim Town was made to be cute for kids. They even had Maxis Kids brand for awhile which included games like Sim Tunes and Sim Park. But even Sim Park was more scientific thank Spore is.

Offline Sub

  • Time Pilot Trekker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1382
  • End is tough.
    • View Profile
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 11:31:00 pm »
I dunno.  I still don't think it'd work, but they could do that I guess.

Offline Yuu

  • Civilization Emperor
  • *****
  • Posts: 10050
  • = )
    • View Profile
    • KOSMOSIS CHRONICLES dA Page
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2008, 11:32:21 pm »
All I can say about al of this is:

Insanity...

 :(


The RP galaxy we have here in the forums is waaaay better than what the game turned out to be.

Talk about fanfiction surpassing the original.

Offline DarkDragon

  • Double Dragon Dude
  • *****
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2008, 11:41:48 pm »
Hydro, that would be a horrible idea.  

There are a few ways that idea could be possible, none of which would work.

They could make it an option in game - Do you want to play the scientific spore or the cute spore - But that'd essentially be two different games sold as one.  It would either require double the resources to produce the game or the quality of each respective title would drop drastically.

They could sell them as two separate product, but honestly, that wouldn't fly either.

And at this point, an expansion pack turning Spore into everything we envisioned it to be is also out of the question.  Expansion packs add content, not change the very fundamentals of the game.

Expansion Packs expand the game, they add new stuff (usually for better) and enhancing what is already there (basically what Hydro suggested).

Stuff/Part Packs add content ;)

They said they wanted to go both ways (we're getting the Space expansion next year after all, and the parts pack next month).

Although they could easily change Spore to what is was supposed to be for free in a way (excluding water stage):

Cartoony to Realistic: Change the shaders, Spore would be fine as it is, they just have to change the realism of the procedural stuff (textures) that are being used. Oh, and gore :P
Fun to Science: Limits on how many and what kind of parts you can change in your creature at once, also little popups explaining interesting scientific facts/theories.
DarkDragon's Minecraft Survival Server (use this as the IP):

gamingsteve.dyndns.org

- The server uses a whitelist, if you're not on the whitelist (can't connect), PM me your minecraft name.

Offline Yuu

  • Civilization Emperor
  • *****
  • Posts: 10050
  • = )
    • View Profile
    • KOSMOSIS CHRONICLES dA Page
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2008, 12:01:00 am »
And remove eco disasters. :P

If a bunch of rednecks can shoot down a ton of birds in a single day, I'm pretty sure that a race capable of funding their multi star-system empire's space program would have the resources to create something like EPA.

It makes absolutely no sense at all. :(


The idea is so retarded, it are stoopid.

Offline Sub

  • Time Pilot Trekker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1382
  • End is tough.
    • View Profile
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2008, 12:26:56 am »
And remove eco disasters. :P

If a bunch of rednecks can shoot down a ton of birds in a single day, I'm pretty sure that a race capable of funding their multi star-system empire's space program would have the resources to create something like EPA.

It makes absolutely no sense at all. :(


The idea is so retarded, it are stoopid.

Word. 

It actually reminds me of Vista's UAC.  It's just an annoying thing to go through over and over.

Offline eleazar

  • Revenging Yar
  • ****
  • Posts: 607
    • View Profile
    • my spore creatures
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2008, 12:28:56 am »
Actually i think Hecker and the "cute team" were right, at least part of the time.  I agree they went too far, but IMHO if everything was the way the "science team" originally planned it the game would not be as good or as popular as it is.

Quote
"...we did a lot of prototyping around the origin of life  around auto-catalytic sets which were fun if you're a chemistry geek, but if you weren't into chemistry were totally obtuse."

Quote
First to go in the cute-versus-science war were the extreme ends of the scale  galaxy formation and originsof- life simulation  dismissed as being too abstract and dissipated. Next, small and then big laws were shattered and remade. Wright's determination to represent faster-than-light travel as impossible crumbled in the face of making the spacefaring section of the game enjoyable. Evolution, despite his staunch Darwinism, became a massively telescoped process that depended on the external, deliberate interventions of the players.

Do you really want to play a game where you have no control over your creature evolution, or where the speed of light is really respected?

Offline Yuu

  • Civilization Emperor
  • *****
  • Posts: 10050
  • = )
    • View Profile
    • KOSMOSIS CHRONICLES dA Page
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2008, 12:37:37 am »
Some sci-fi novels, shows and games can still keep their hardcore-ish feeling even with the use of FTL.

Check out Frank Herbert's Dune. That's how Spore's space stage economy should have been.

Offline Enoch

  • Crazy Climber Cuckoo
  • **
  • Posts: 127
    • View Profile
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2008, 01:51:09 am »
Quote
In the extremely early versions that I toyed around with, I was able to make creatures that shifted under their own weight. Creatures that exploited the length of their arms or legs for greater reach. Creatures that behave and move true to how they were built. A short bunny-creature would definitely be out-run by the long-legged dragon-giraffe. That was very neat, and it implied several exciting possibilities in gameplay.

For instance, creature morphology actually mattered. This implied deeper strategy to creature creation. You have a small inkling of this in the Cell stage where placement of parts somewhat mattered. For example, spikes placed behind your creature saved you from being bitten when chased. But, the strategy that earlier prototypes implied went beyond placement of parts. The length of limbs or spine felt like it mattered. If you had a forward-heavy animal with legs placed in the back, it would run poorly as it tries (and fails) to counteract its own weight.

 :'(

Offline DarkDragon

  • Double Dragon Dude
  • *****
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2008, 02:15:03 am »
Actually i think Hecker and the "cute team" were right, at least part of the time.  I agree they went too far, but IMHO if everything was the way the "science team" originally planned it the game would not be as good or as popular as it is.

Quote
"...we did a lot of prototyping around the origin of life  around auto-catalytic sets which were fun if you're a chemistry geek, but if you weren't into chemistry were totally obtuse."

Quote
First to go in the cute-versus-science war were the extreme ends of the scale  galaxy formation and originsof- life simulation  dismissed as being too abstract and dissipated. Next, small and then big laws were shattered and remade. Wright's determination to represent faster-than-light travel as impossible crumbled in the face of making the spacefaring section of the game enjoyable. Evolution, despite his staunch Darwinism, became a massively telescoped process that depended on the external, deliberate interventions of the players.

Do you really want to play a game where you have no control over your creature evolution, or where the speed of light is really respected?


If at the same time they expanded on every stage of the game so that you have to take more time colonizing, terraforming, etc in new and interesting ways: yes.
DarkDragon's Minecraft Survival Server (use this as the IP):

gamingsteve.dyndns.org

- The server uses a whitelist, if you're not on the whitelist (can't connect), PM me your minecraft name.

Offline Petike

  • Stargate Superstar
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
    • View Profile
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2008, 03:09:11 am »
Fixing these development blunders would be an agreeable route for future expansions. But something tells me this is wishful thinking. The Spore we have now may never be as it was.

One thing is for sure Maxis shouldn't be happy about what their devoted fans are saying.

Also, as Sub said I advise anyone to refrain from the Chris Hecker bashing. This was all just a shortsighted mistake.

You're right on that one, Chris Hecker is not the only one to blame for how the game turned out, after all he's not above the whole Development team, he gave an idea and they went with it. (unfortunatelly)

Truth.  Wright has basically said in an interview that sales were more important than the actual quality of the game. 
http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/09/07/will-wright-reacts-to-crtical-spore-reviews/
That is not what he said. He said "Metacritic scores"

Quality =/= Metacritic scores
Metacritic is heavily influenced by hardcore gamers. But they are just a fragment of the audience. They have certain values that they expect from games. But these values are not universal. They are just a minority, in this case of a game for everyone. Their specific values doesn't worth more than the opinion of housewives, Christians, soldiers, homosexuals, old people, movie fans, etc. They-are-just-another-minority.

Quality =  Popularity
At least that is how Will Wright looks at it. Games are tools for entertainment, and the more people entertained by it, the better it is. Actually it makes sense. Obviously, a small group of users can not decide the UNIVERSAL quality of  creation, only express their biased opinion about it. So, the number of people who played with it, is a good way to decide if they made something relevant.

Popularity = Sales
This one is obvious. The more people like it, the more people buy it.

Sales = Quality
Conclusion: The sales charts represent which developers managed to reach the bigger audience, and which ones are making niches.
Quote from: MasterChiToes in "Spore was dumbed down"
Maybe the Sporons are the ones that got dumbed down?  ;D

Offline Hydromancerx

  • Master of Orion
  • *****
  • Posts: 12394
  • Klaatu Barada Nikto!
    • View Profile
    • Sagan 4
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2008, 04:30:56 am »
Quote
First to go in the cute-versus-science war were the extreme ends of the scale  galaxy formation and originsof- life simulation  dismissed as being too abstract and dissipated. Next, small and then big laws were shattered and remade. Wright's determination to represent faster-than-light travel as impossible crumbled in the face of making the spacefaring section of the game enjoyable. Evolution, despite his staunch Darwinism, became a massively telescoped process that depended on the external, deliberate interventions of the players.

Do you really want to play a game where you have no control over your creature evolution, or where the speed of light is really respected?


Not for Spore but for another Space game I would really like to see a game that uses real space physics such as complete silence in space and slow space flight. Perhaps even an RPG where it could take real time months to get to say to get to Mars. That would be so awesome having a "2001: A Space Odyssey" style RPG for colonizing Mars where the players act like the colonists and actually help build a virtual Mars colony using NASA style science. Sure some would not like it but for science geeks like me it would be the next best thing to actually going to Mars.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 04:35:44 am by Hydromancerx »

Offline DaMuncha

  • Lode Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2248
  • GREAT SCOTTS!
    • View Profile
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2008, 04:52:49 am »
Quality = Suffering
Believe in the force luke.

Offline Beatnuki

  • Scramble Skipper
  • ****
  • Posts: 686
  • Wilco Hex, reporting for duty!
    • View Profile
    • Beatnuki's Chunk of Funk (which seemed like a good idea at the time)
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2008, 06:11:17 am »
Ooooh, so the cat isn't so much out of the bag as up on the roof with a megaphone screeching, "The truth shall set you free!!!"

Wow. The potential and the amount of stuff thrown out the window is just... wow.

I like being able to go faster than light though. I'm willing to make concessions like that. I'm a cartoonist (not professionally, more sort of habitually) and so the toon aspect never really bothered me, but even I scowled at my monitor when I read the bit about creatures possibly having sneakers. SNEAKERS.

Maxis should let Mr. Hecker work on the Wii version of Spore. Bweheheheheh!
If you peruse my things, you get POINTS!
http://www.spore.com/view/profile/Beatnuki

Only trouble is, they're Whose Line Is It Anyway points, which are infamously not worth anything.

Offline Crowster

  • Defender Devotee
  • ***
  • Posts: 437
  • It's Crow-Time, Baby!
    • View Profile
    • The Adventures of Crow-Man
Re: One of the reasons why Spore is "cute" and dumbed down
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2008, 06:18:05 am »
Making things look kind of cute is one thing. Really, I have little problem with visual changes.

The problem is, most of Spore's substance in the first place came in the form of science, and when they went cut-crazy, going, "Oh people won't like this," they seemed to forget to replace what they cut with something more fun, or with anything at all. As a result, most of us feel that the Spore we got, while fun in its own right (for a while anyway) feels like an empty shell. There really is no substance.

The editors are great, which is to be expected. Let's face it, if it weren't for the editors, the Spore we have now would not be worth anything. The game itself ... kind of sucks, honestly. It's the thrill of seeing the UFO that you yourself created zipping around that makes it worth anything, or scanning a creature walking around on some planet and going, "Oh, wow, so-and-so made this. That's neat."

One thing that always caught me with the 2005 demo was how space looked. It looked like a smaller version of our own galaxy. Wasn't it Will Wright who said he wanted to present space as 3D? Why is it, then, that the galaxy we got is largely two dimensional? It doesn't start feeling the way I was expecting until you approach the center, and even then what you see looks nothing like a real starscape. My galaxy appears to be full of stars, black holes, and the occasional proto star. There is never anything new, I felt like I had seen everything that space had to offer within the first half hour of gameplay. What ever happened to being able to go out and discover the kind of thing that you'd see in a hubble image? What ever happened to a game that would inspire an interest in astronomy?

That's what really gets me. Spore doesn't inspire an interest in science. At no point do I see anything in Spore and go, "Oh, wow, I want to learn more about how that works!" They simplified everything to make it easier for the average person to grasp, then went one step farther and simplified it down to the point where it no longer represents anything real. Simply dropping down two herbivores, one carnivore, then a small, medium, and large plant DOESN'T make me want to learn about ecology. Ripping off one foot and replacing it with another doesn't make me want to learn about natural selection. Seeing a single proto star hanging out amongst a group of stars doesn't make me want to learn about astronomy.