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Will Wright's Spore => Spore: General => Topic started by: jujubee on May 25, 2005, 04:17:04 pm

Title: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: jujubee on May 25, 2005, 04:17:04 pm
well with the new info on the terraforming sytme using T,B,P. so what do you guys think on this stuff? if any one know more about it please share! (this goes for you too Steve  ;) )

Edit: I would say more on it but currently I only know that it exists, the intire point of this thread is to find out more info on it (as well as discuss it)
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Gauphastus on May 25, 2005, 04:20:17 pm
I'm still fairly confused about what it is. Are they like ratings for different inhabitability areas of the planet?
Do you see these when you hover over the planet, and if so, are these for strategizing what planet would be a better "investment" of your time and money?
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: jujubee on May 25, 2005, 04:22:45 pm
well from the podcast I gathered that yes, you do yes it, and that it is given a rating depenting on were it is in location from the sun (T), whats the population (P), and for B I forgot what it does.. any way I guess that you can transfore a planet to a certen degree depenting on its T scorre, and what not... please feel free to correct me as I'm most likly wrong.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: SpiroAgnew on May 25, 2005, 04:24:24 pm
What I got from it was that it was basically a rating of how lush the planet can potentially be. Like, a T10 planet could be terraformed up to level 10, which would have more resources and vegetation (possibly) than a T4 or something. I need to reread it again.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: jujubee on May 25, 2005, 04:25:31 pm
What I got from it was that it was basically a rating of how lush the planet can potentially be. Like, a T10 planet could be terraformed up to level 10, which would have more resources and vegetation (possibly) than a T4 or something. I need to reread it again.

thats perrty much what I got from it as well...
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: vbGamer on May 25, 2005, 04:26:09 pm
T score - Seems to be how habitabal the planet is. Something in the middle of the solar system would be 10. Too close, or too far, then it's 0 or 1.

B score - Seems to be how well certain creatures will live. i.e., there might just be enough athmosphere or air for plants to live (or land room), but not for creatures. Maybe it's the size of the planet. A small moon that's terraformed might be a 1, whereas a nice sized planet might be a 10.

P score - I'm guessing that this would be how large your colonies would be compared to your population.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: D_Malachi on May 25, 2005, 04:28:28 pm
Hmm... personally, I think it adds a certain degree of challenge to the space portion of the game. Prior to this, there was a good chance that, at first, it was believed that if it's a planet, it can be terraformed and colonized just like any other... though that's hardly scientific. It would be utterly impossible to fully colonize Pluto (too cold, little to no gravity, absolutely zero atmosphere. Domed cities seem possible) and Mercury (Way too hot, perhaps a bit too small or large (haven't studied the planet's size in ages) and standard glass domes would not last long at all). However, were we to get to Venus, augment its atmosphere and add some protection from the fact that we'd be closer to the sun, it's possible... in that respect, Pluto and Mercury would have very low Terraforming scores, Biosphere scores varying (with a flat 0 for Pluto, none whatsoever, probably close to that for Mercury), and naturally a 0 in Population, as no human could possibly live on either planet for very long. However, Venus (being so close in size to Earth) would be much higher, though not quite livable yet, it would take potentially decades of work.

To sum it up, adds realism. I like it, it works well.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: SpiroAgnew on May 25, 2005, 04:31:16 pm
Here it is for reference purposes:

There's a terraforming … as you terraform, this is kind of the rough idea is that every planet has a “T Score” from zero to ten, “B Score”, which is a biosphere score, and a “P Score”, which is the population score of your colony. Depending where the planets are relative to the sun they can have maximum T Scores. So planets that are really far away or really close to the center can have very low T Scores and you can never terraform them, they’re very high. Other ones will be moderately useful, like T6. That’s going cap the B Score so if I actually get an atmosphere up to a T6, which is this range. At this point, plants will live, animals won't, and colonies will be fairly expensive still. And so, this is kind of the terraform/colonization game.

Ok, so if I'm reading this correctly, the B (biosphere) score will be capped according to the current atmosphere level (how much you've terraformed it), and at a certain B level plants will grow, and a higher level (at least higher than 6) will be needed for living animals. Also, the more you've terraformed it, the less colonies cost. This makes sense (having to adapt the enviroment in the cities more and more would be more expensive).
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: jujubee on May 25, 2005, 04:34:45 pm
hmm I wounder if plants will evolve? or find some sort of narrel defence.. wel I guess since theres no animals to eat them the would not need them... I wounder if you did some how land on one of these planet if you would be like a blue-green algree thing?
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: SL on May 25, 2005, 04:52:51 pm
However, were we to get to Venus, augment its atmosphere and add some protection from the fact that we'd be closer to the sun, it's possible...

Augment its atmosphere? Are you sure ;)? Well, presumably the long-term problem with Venus is that it doesn't have a decent magnetic field to deflect the solar wind (It's believed that the solar wind broke down the water in venus' atmosphere). So you'd want to speed up its rotation a lot to solve that problem (Quoth wikipedia: "Venus's intrinsic magnetic field has been found very weak compared to other planets in the solar system. This may be due to its slow rotation being insufficient to drive an internal dynamo of liquid iron. As a result, solar wind strikes Venus's upper atmosphere without mediation."). Then you'd want to break the CO2 in its atmosphere up somehow to reduce the greenhouse effect and to get some oxygen in the air. Ideally, you'd also bleed off some of the atmosphere somehow to reduce the atmospheric pressure. You'd probably want to get rid of the sulfuric acid and sulfur dioxide clouds while you were at it.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: jujubee on May 25, 2005, 04:55:02 pm
However, were we to get to Venus, augment its atmosphere and add some protection from the fact that we'd be closer to the sun, it's possible...

Augment its atmosphere? Are you sure ;)? Well, presumably the long-term problem with Venus is that it doesn't have a decent magnetic field to deflect the solar wind (It's believed that the solar wind broke down the water in venus' atmosphere). So you'd want to speed up its rotation a lot to solve that problem (Quoth wikipedia: "Venus's intrinsic magnetic field has been found very weak compared to other planets in the solar system. This may be due to its slow rotation being insufficient to drive an internal dynamo of liquid iron. As a result, solar wind strikes Venus's upper atmosphere without mediation."). Then you'd want to break the CO2 in its atmosphere up somehow to reduce the greenhouse effect and to get some oxygen in the air. Ideally, you'd also bleed off some of the atmosphere somehow to reduce the atmospheric pressure. You'd probably want to get rid of the sulfuric acid and sulfur dioxide clouds while you were at it.


solar wind is a good point... this also rises the question what forms of UFO prpotion are there.. not to get too hyped up about it but it would be cool to have solar sails.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Oviraptor on May 25, 2005, 04:55:38 pm
However, were we to get to Venus, augment its atmosphere and add some protection from the fact that we'd be closer to the sun, it's possible...

Augment its atmosphere? Are you sure ;)? Well, presumably the long-term problem with Venus is that it doesn't have a decent magnetic field to deflect the solar wind (It's believed that the solar wind broke down the water in venus' atmosphere). So you'd want to speed up its rotation a lot to solve that problem (Quoth wikipedia: "Venus's intrinsic magnetic field has been found very weak compared to other planets in the solar system. This may be due to its slow rotation being insufficient to drive an internal dynamo of liquid iron. As a result, solar wind strikes Venus's upper atmosphere without mediation."). Then you'd want to break the CO2 in its atmosphere up somehow to reduce the greenhouse effect and to get some oxygen in the air. Ideally, you'd also bleed off some of the atmosphere somehow to reduce the atmospheric pressure. You'd probably want to get rid of the sulfuric acid and sulfur dioxide clouds while you were at it.

Also, it spins BACKWARDS.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: D_Malachi on May 25, 2005, 05:01:43 pm
Well, perhaps we could, in theory, either simulate, recreate, fabricate, or generally speaking "make" a new one (magnetic field). And, of course, by "augment its atmosphere" I meant, basically, trying to replicate that of Earth's, so life from here could live there, if you don't count the newfound closeness to the sun to be a problem.

...Then again, we can't even get there yet. We'd have to start terraforming now to get there any time in the near, relatively speaking, future... barring any massive leaps in technology, that is, as we can basically only get to the moon with ease, more or less. We'd need something similar to Wright's "Interstellar Drive," or at least more powerful propulsion engines. Would still take a great deal of time just to get there, considering the distance.

...But, back on point, merely using this solar system as a bit of an explanation as to how the T, B, and P scores in the game reflect reality, instead of colonizing anything and everything that's not a star or other non-planetary "thing.'
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Behumat on May 25, 2005, 05:48:08 pm
I grasp the whole varying scores when terraforming a planet that lies within the zone of habitability of a star. (Roughly from venus to the asteroid belt in our system) But what about worlds outside that? As I develope technologies can I terraform them? Or perhaps some natural features of certain distant worlds would allow colonization, i.e. thermal vents, dense ammonia atmospheres, etc. (Basically things that would trap heat, and mind, I'm not assuming your creature necessarily breathes oxygen)
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Stromko on May 25, 2005, 05:59:25 pm
Interesting thoughts.. as it is right now we know of ONE planet that supports life. Maybe underneath the ice of Io there's thermal vents and god-knows-what, but what I'm trying to say is we know of only one method by which a planet can support life.

Maybe on the other side of the galaxy there's some species that feeds off of intense space radiation and are discussing how it'd be impossible for any planet that's exposed to visible light to support life, because this destroys the weird cells that make up every form of life on their planet. And then a few stars over, there's a silicate energy-based species talking about how biological materials could never support lifelike entities(edit: because it'd melt under high currents or some silly thing).

Until we head out and find other lifeforms, and until we find that other lifeforms thrive rather than suffer on planets like Earth, we really have no way of knowing. We've never seen silicate life, we haven't proven protoplasmic interdimensional entities, we don't know how physics work in the dark-matter universe if it exists at all.

(edit) Master of Orion 3 actually had a pretty interesting system for habitability, every species had a different model of what a perfect planet was to them. In MoO2 every race wanted a Terran or Gaia planet, in MoO3 insectoids wanted a different planet than cybernetics and gasbags wanted a different planet than humans.

I think it'd make sense in Spore if your starting planet had a random T, B, P value and these were the values your species would seek out in other planets once they made a UFO and started colonizing. But on the other hand, this might artificially limit the selection of species that can be added to your world.. or if the T, B, P values had no real effect on their evolution or characteristics, then people might well be disappointed that it's interchangeable. Frankly as I'm able to figure out this idea on my own it's a pretty bad idea in a lot of ways, they'd have to find a better way to do it if this was really a feature.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Pinstar on May 25, 2005, 07:07:17 pm
Here is an interesting idea: What if creatures had T requirements.

When Earth was hit with a medeor way back when and all the dinosaurs died, only a small part of the biosphere survived. That small part: the tiny mammels and other smaller creatures. In a way, that metor lowered Earth's T rating for awhile.


What if certain creatures have minimum T scores to live on. Since 6 is enough for plants but not enough for creatures, I'll bet that a "7" can only support some very small creatures, and even then mostly in the ocean (if they exist.) Like those little hopper guys from the video.
at an "8" I bet will's tripod would be the largest thing the world could support. At a "9" that spider thing that chased Will's creature would be the largest type of creature. At a 10, ANY size creature could survive.


This brings me to another idea: What if you had the option on starting a game on a planet with less than a 10 rating. What if you had to make it to sentiance on a T 7 plane? That would be really cool.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Dust on May 25, 2005, 07:51:35 pm
I have one thing to say you may easily live on Venus but not Earth and harder on Mars depending on your species evolution
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: krjal on May 25, 2005, 08:58:45 pm
I believe the ratings are based on the creature you currently (at that time) play as. If your creature requires high pressure atmosphere and sulphur couds then you have very little chance of 'terra'forming Mars completely for your creature. Venus would be perfect and Earth would be difficult.

Also vice versa with a low atmospheric pressure creature that needs cold, dry environments.

Btw, the idea of beginning the game on different types of planets is great because it'll give the player focus for whatever they're doing.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: kolpo on May 26, 2005, 10:22:14 am
In simearth could you semi terraform mars or venus: you could terraform them to the point where they can support bacteria but not anything else. It might be cool to play with a bacteria on a planet like that :)

Now I think about it, why not have planets where evolution is still in a very early stage, like planets with only primitive fish or planets with only bacteria. Then could our UFO decide whatever we want  to leave them alone or help evolution a hand :)
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Pinstar on May 26, 2005, 10:45:45 am
I believe the ratings are based on the creature you currently (at that time) play as. If your creature requires high pressure atmosphere and sulphur couds then you have very little chance of 'terra'forming Mars completely for your creature. Venus would be perfect and Earth would be difficult.

Also vice versa with a low atmospheric pressure creature that needs cold, dry environments.

Btw, the idea of beginning the game on different types of planets is great because it'll give the player focus for whatever they're doing.


That would be really cool, but I wonder how extreme of an environment can become a 'norm' for a certain race. I mean can you make a race of creatures that loves the cold so much that a pluto-like planet would be a T10 to them?

The reason I think there is an equal standard is will's comment that "At a 6, plants can grow but no animals"

Now if there were animals that LIKED whatever that extreme environment that made up a T6, he would say "No normal animals" or "only special kinds of animals" could survive on this planet, and say something about how "it's a t10 to someone else". However he said "NO animals" which leads me to think that there is at least some universal standard that all creatures use to value planets, and certain minimums and maximums beyond which NO creatures can survive, no matter how specialized for an extreme environment.

Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: fundy on May 27, 2005, 04:15:43 pm
well in the podcast i believe that will also says all of the properties of the planets biosphere etc  would be different for different players meaning that it is possible for 1 planet to be a biosphere 6 for 1 guy and 1 or 2 for another so maybe only creatures from certain planets can survive on certain planets. but if this is true then wouldnt terraforming a strange world already inhabited by another creature throw off the balance and destroy the other creature
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: TheNewGuy on May 28, 2005, 01:22:14 pm
The way i understood the T, B, and P scores was this:

The Terraform score rated how similar to "Earth" a certain planet is (assuming Earth is the planet your creature is from)

The Biosphere score rates how well a certain planet supports life; this score is limited by the Terraform score.  That is, a planet with a low Terraform score (a planet very unlike Earth) would have an intrinsically low Biosphere score - it cannot support life well, because it is very unlike your creature's original home.  By raising the Terraform score, we also raise the maximum possible Biosphere score, though we may need to artificially help the biosphere along (perhaps by adding more oxygen to the atmosphere, or - later on - adding vegetation to begin the creation of an ecosystem that would support life on that planet)

The population score, obviously, would be the population of your colonies there.

The way it sounded to me, I think we can probably only Terraform a planet so much.  That is, we can only raise its T score a couple points.  Planets too close or too far from the sun would simply not be able to reach high T scores.  Because Mercury, for example, is so close to the Sun, we could only Terrafrom it up to perhaps a 5, even using the Genesis Device.  That means that the Biosphere score is also capped at an inhospitable level, no matter what.  So, while Terraforming Mercury would make colonization (with domed cities and the like) cheaper than it had originally been, it will never be effective enough to allow creatures to live in the "open air."  That, at least, is how I understood it.

Having said all that, I would like to say that I very much like the idea of having our creatures' home planets be "non-standard" planets - that is, the conditions there are not necessarily like Earth.  If this were the case, though, I would assume that whatever your creature's home planet is would be considered a T10, and all others you see would be given T-scores based on your creatures' home planet.  I can see how this would be difficult, though, because it may make it more difficult to populate your planet with other players' sepcies, if they were created on a very different planet.

I would like to see this implemented somehow, though.  I thinkthey could try something like this: at the beginning of the game, you could choose a rough idea of what "type" of planet your creature would be from.  You could choose from a standard Earth type, a Volcanic type, an Arctic type, dense jungle, more arid plains, etc.  or just have it assign a random one.  They could use this system, and whatever your home planet is would be T10.  But the game could also assign relative scores (that the players never see) to all the types of planets, then choose to populate your planet with creatures from similar areas.  For example, you choose to raise your creature on a Volcanic planet....the game will populate your world with other Volcanic creatures -- it won't choose Oceanic or Arcic creatures.  I think this would be a very cool solution, and would love to see it implemented.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Borogove on May 28, 2005, 01:53:47 pm
...I figured T was for temperature, which is why the planet near the sun couldn't get a good score...(atmopsphereic changes/greenhouse effect can only do so much).  My memory sucks tho, I should go reread the WW interview. 

Wonder if it takes into acount that the climate/ecosystem would vary in different places on the planet.  On the one hand this IS the guy behind SimEarth, but on the othe,r basing an entire planet on one specific type of Earth habitat is quite prevalent in science fiction. 


Speculating about Spore makes my brain hurt.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Gauphastus on May 28, 2005, 02:33:26 pm
Having said all that, I would like to say that I very much like the idea of having our creatures' home planets be "non-standard" planets - that is, the conditions there are not necessarily like Earth.  If this were the case, though, I would assume that whatever your creature's home planet is would be considered a T10, and all others you see would be given T-scores based on your creatures' home planet.  I can see how this would be difficult, though, because it may make it more difficult to populate your planet with other players' sepcies, if they were created on a very different planet.

I'd find it a little more interesting if your starter planet was merely adequate (like a T8), and finding the most ideal planets (somehow moreso than your original planet) like T9s and T10s will allow your creatures to flourish -extremely- well.
I realize it sounds strange, since you'd figure your original planet would be the most ideal. But think of it in another way; if you terraform it so well that it caters entirely and almost flawlessly to your creature's needs, which your original planet may somewhat fail to do, then it becomes more ideal.
Like you see how Earth here, we're always complaining about how hot or cold it gets. If we found a planet that didn't get quite so hot or quite so cold, had lots more food and material, then we'd certainly flourish better there.
Hrm, not a very good example but I'm sure you get what I mean.
Of course, that brings up yet another question: can natural resources on a planet run out? That would be very annoying, but I just wonder.
And also, since you can apparently take plants from other planets, what happens if you take nearly all of them? Do plants grow back or do they just regenerate in different areas so you don't really notice?

Enough of that.

Speculating about Spore makes my brain hurt.

I find speculating fun. It's trying to comprehend it with my feeble brain that hurts me.
Blast you, Wright.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Sporeaholicomg99 on May 31, 2005, 08:45:36 am
As I understood from will and steves interview this is how it goes

T score - the measure of how well the planet is suited to your particular species ie a water planet to a water species would be t10 but the same planet to a land based organism would be t0 or something lame

B score - the measure of how the atmosphere and current creatures is fitting with your organism. eg a planet with no atmosphere would be b0 to any creature. and a planet which already has 30 ft          green blobs will also have a low b score for a colony 30ft blue blobs

P score - the measure of the current population of the planet. a planet with high p score already has lots of lifeforms living on its surface this can have implications on which species if any land there as they are likely to be faced with opposition

Will also mentioned that there would be a bias on the type of planets downloaded to the galaxy  according to your particular tye of creature ie if you have a water creature then the computer will download more water planets than any other kind

hope youguys find this helpful                         
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: SpecialBrownies on July 14, 2006, 10:22:30 am
Man, what in the, he..ck, were those people talking about last March?

Where did they get that TBP thing, or whatever? I'm so confused.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Didero on July 14, 2006, 10:50:12 am
Man, what in the, he..ck, were those people talking about last March?

Where did they get that TBP thing, or whatever? I'm so confused.

I think they got if from the only Spore movie they had at that time, the GDC05 movie
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: darkstar on July 14, 2006, 01:00:23 pm
ok lets see if i get this...

T score seems to me to be how easy or difficult this planet will be to terraform
B score seems to be how habitable the planet currently is
P score must be how many of your creature the planet could theoretically support.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: ChristianSkunk on July 14, 2006, 03:16:14 pm
That's what it sounds like to me.
Title: Re: Terraforming: the TPB point sytme..
Post by: Gauphastus on July 14, 2006, 04:24:36 pm
This info is all from Gaming Steve's interview with Will Wright; the TBP planet scores are Wrights system of helping players find appropriate planets to colonize.
Feel free to go read up (link is on front page I believe). It's quite interesting.