Author Topic: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion  (Read 458348 times)

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Offline Daxx

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #120 on: January 12, 2008, 04:28:27 pm »
So people that stuffers form pollutions are not effected? I do not get you. Economic wise there productivty get lower if there health is effected negativly and so on.

You don't seem to get this at all. I'm getting frustrated.

The person whose land it is is getting repaid, so his net utility gains are 0. The firm therefore bears the entire social cost of the pollution, and adjusts polluting output so that social optimum is achieved. No-one else is even involved, since we're not talking about any form of further externality beyond the effect on the land in question.

EDIT: /lurk, I'll explain why this works (i.e. provides a social optimum) later when I'm not on the radio and have time to draw some graphs. Bear in mind that it's not actually a flat fee. Remind me to come back to this. It's actually quite interesting.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 04:37:51 pm by Daxx »

Offline Yokto

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2008, 04:59:59 pm »
But the problem is that it does not work that way in reality. pollution to no follow the will of men.

I think i am starting to understand what you getting at. But pollution effect not only landowners. Not only landowners need to be compesated. Will the Land oweners pay for the hospitals out of there own pockets? (Without a extra tax.) I think not.

So most likely will you need some way to compesate all those effect right? At least if we try to be fair.



Beyond that you mention that firms wish to pollute would pay this.  How would this be done for car for example? Would the car industry pay for it? Or the petrol companies? How about the medical industry. Though there plants may have no ill effect on the local enveroment would they still have to play as the pills after passing the human body becomes toxic waste in nature? How would it work practical? Everyone that pollute should pay right?



Also one thing i wounder. Is there not a risk that industries be placed close to the borders then of other countries so evade this fees? If most of the pollution just spill over to places that can not collect any money form these firms then the firm will go free.

Also like Lurk points out there is a risk for creating pollutions zones if you ask me.



Well i think we need to get to the root of things.

What is the goal?
  • To Reduce Pollution or Elimininate it.

How do we do that?
  • Improve efficency
  • Find new production techniques
  • Repair damaged coused by pollution
  • (low production)

3 of the point on how to do it is mainly tied in to technology. the 4th point is something many economists dread to hear but is defently a option.

Now i do not know which way is most efficent to stimulate all these factors. A simple tax could be put on pollution and that money could be invested in any of the 3 points above. One could also sell the right to pollute but i have not seen this work effecently. Lower poduction could be a postive/negative side effect of what ever scheem one uses.'

The one thing one whants to avoid is that those responble for the pollution try to avoid that responble and find a easy way out of there dilema.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 05:03:46 pm by Yokto »
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Offline Daxx

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2008, 05:06:55 pm »
Being on the radio atm I don't have the time to reply to that, because it requires some in-depth economic analysis to demonstrate why you're wrong.

I'll respond to this tomorrow.

Offline Yokto

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2008, 05:15:38 pm »
Yeah i know. Even if i can not understand how a Tax is that hard to implement compared to your system. :P
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Offline Inkling

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2008, 05:16:13 pm »
Well, that's all fine and good, but this is a thread about the Presidential race, right?  Anyone have comments on the New Hampshire primaries, or the primaries coming up this week?
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Offline Yokto

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2008, 05:35:26 pm »
Anyway is there anyone that got a link that covers the property rights managment as a way to handel pollution?



found a wiki article about it.



This is all based on a working free market model?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 05:49:11 pm by Yokto »
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Offline Slartibartfast

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2008, 10:59:43 pm »
Well, that's all fine and good, but this is a thread about the Presidential race, right?  Anyone have comments on the New Hampshire primaries, or the primaries coming up this week?
Michigan is the state to watch.  Is crossover 'mischief' in the making?  All the Democrats that don't want to vote for Hillary could do anything, even vote for Ron Paul.   ;) 

Offline /lurk

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #127 on: January 13, 2008, 01:29:39 am »
I don't understand how that could give a meaningful result. What's the point of even holding the ballot, if your only choices are Hillary Clinton or Dennis Kucinich - who it's apparently forbidden for Americans to like?
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Offline Mr. Consideration

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #128 on: January 13, 2008, 01:45:16 am »
I don't understand how that could give a meaningful result. What's the point of even holding the ballot, if your only choices are Hillary Clinton or Dennis Kucinich - who it's apparently forbidden for Americans to like?

...but whom everyone on this board seems to like.
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Offline /lurk

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2008, 03:12:06 am »
We're hardly representative of American public opinion, though, are we?
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Offline Huckbuck

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2008, 03:37:07 am »
Go Obama!  :D
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2008, 04:52:17 am »
I don't understand how that could give a meaningful result. What's the point of even holding the ballot, if your only choices are Hillary Clinton or Dennis Kucinich - who it's apparently forbidden for Americans to like?

Maybe his wife is too sexy and it makes the electorate feel insecure.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline GamerMommy

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #132 on: January 13, 2008, 09:27:48 am »
AGREE, huck.

when one of the most whitebread, conservative states in the country (Iowa) votes for the black guy, times they are a changin'.

AND THAT'S FINE WITH ME.   ;)

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Offline Huckbuck

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #133 on: January 13, 2008, 10:46:43 am »
THUMBS UP!  ;D
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Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election-Official Discussion
« Reply #134 on: January 13, 2008, 11:18:23 am »
Times are changing but whether its for the best remains to be seen.