Topic: News for your Blues

[Axelgear]

Actually before the corner "buckled" as you say, streams of molten metal was seen and recorded flowing from below that area. I agree with your choice of word when you say kaboom, because the top of the tower first started moving outwards and downwards, only to disappear in a cloud of dust without continuing its outwards momentum, this would either indicate that it did not meet any resistance from below, or that the bottom of the top block was being removed before it could impact with standing tower, so your recollection of that event is not accurate.

I am no scientist at all, but when they conclude that "The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.", then I pay attention, because that statement is extremely explosive politically speaking, or it would be if it was being discussed, but like I said, I doubt this will make it anywhere important.

And yes I definitely believe people are able to keep secrets from the masses.
The Gulf of Tonkin incident that started the Vietnam war was a lie, USA started that war, did you know that ?
USS Liberty was attacked and almost wiped out by Isreali fighter planes, did you know that ?
Both Bush Presidents were fathered by a convicted traitor to the USA, did you know that ?
Yes its quite possible for a govornment to keep secrets from its people, they do it all the time, day in day out.

Analyzing things is not the same as getting your information from the television, or from the fictional history we learn in school.

Please watch this. This will explain why and show very clearly how the collapse occurred. As for streams of molten metal, wouldn't a plane flying into a building logically create streams of molten metal? Aluminium's melting point is about 1200 F, and the fires reached 1800 F at their worst. Now, what's the major material in the frame of an airplane? Giggles for guesses!

As for the tower "falling outwards", if you watch closely, you'll see it, like a child bouncing on a trampoline, does fall slightly to the side, but it stays mostly on centre. Why? Because there's no real force pushing it out that way. Gravity is pushing it down. The building then continues to collapse very quickly because it's a building collapsing. The full weight of the top half of the WTC just came falling down on top of it, it's going to fall fast.

As for thermitic material, again, that's not hard to explain away. For example, many communications systems and electric wires use thermite in their construction. Some paints even do (Some theorize the Hindenburg went up in flames for just that reason). There's a thousand and one materials it could have been there. It could've also been created when quantities of iron oxide were mixed with an abundant source of aluminium at high temperatures, something that is hard to deny given that there was a huge source of aluminium full of probable sources of iron oxide jammed straight into another probable source of iron oxide.

You may not be a scientist but it's not hard to use the scientific method to examine evidence and figure out the most logical and likely hypothesis.

Now, as for your other statements...

-The Gulf of Tonkin incident was a phantom but the Vietnam war had been ongoing since 1955. The war itself was the muddy result of colonialism and foreign powers meddling where they were not wanted. All the US started was its sending in ground troops, but it'd been involved in the war for years by that point.

-The attack on the USS Liberty was dubbed a friendly fire incident. The evidence suggests it was. The Israelis WERE attacking them intentionally... Because they thought they were an enemy ship. The Liberty was a refitted cargo ship, and the Israelis were looking for a refitted cargo ship. It was identified and its position targeted while it was wreathed in smoke. The attacks were called off, not when the ship was sunk, but when Israeli pilots noticed GTR on the bow, in Latin alphabet letters, not in Arabic.

You have to ask which is more likely: Israel attacking their most valuable ally on the whole planet on the off chance they might say something to Jordan, or for Israel to mistakenly target a vessel? Note that even US pilots with more modern weapons and targeting systems have bombed Canadian troops flying full colours...

-That's just silly. George H. W. Bush is not a convicted traitor to the United States. Therefore, how can G. Bush Jr. be the son of a convicted traitor? Sr's father was Prescott Bush, also never convicted of treason. It does not follow, my friend.



Phew! That took a while...

[Poised]

Molten aluminum will have a silvery glare to it, the metal flowing out from the tower just before the collapse did not have that glow, instead it had the colouration of thermite, furthermore there were pools of molten metal below all three buildings weeks after 9/11, you dont get molten metal from 1100f fires, so no I dont believe the molten metal was aluminum.

The video does present an interesting point about the visibly bent exterior, but that does not mean that the interior had been weakened by fires and hence caused the collapse(s), the evidence for that theory is infinitely thinner than the theory it tries to debunk, its a theoretical possibility, but its definitely not fact by any stretch of the meaning of that word. It fails to explain or debunk any of the observed anomalies, like the molten metal, and how the lobby was blown out like a bomb had gone off when FDNY arrived, the myriad of testimonies reporting bombs going off, not to mention why WTC7 collapsed under even more suspicious circumstances.
The video takes one single incident, and then it spins all kinds of theories around it, non of wich have yet to be proven, the walls could also have given in in that fashion if the support had been removed with thermate, like the flowing metal prior to the collapse below the break line would suggest.

Its not easy to really see what is going on with that top chunk, since for some reason the concrete all around it turned into dust obscuring the view.

And again the thermate, the options you put forth does not explain the specifics of their findings like this one : "4. Iron oxide appears in faceted grains roughly 100 nm across whereas the aluminum appears in thin platelike structures. The small size of the iron oxide particles qualifies the material to be characterized as nanothermite or super-thermite.", I trust these guys know what they talk about when they describe the tell tale sign of a thermate reaction, appearantly small sized iron oxide grains are produced at thermate temperatures, non of what you suggested will result in a temperature as high as thermate.

As for the 3 incidents, people are still taught to this day that the Vietnamese started the Vietnam war, the attack on USS liberty was not as benign as you portray it if you listen to the survisors tell about it, and yes Prescott Bush was convicted for trading with the enemy in a time of war in 1943, in other words treason, and no he didnt father baby Bush, he was the father of one and the grandfather of the other.

Off to bed

[Legodragonxp]

I didn't watch the whole video, sorry.

A couple points:
-Thermite is used in welding, sometimes in very large amounts. One example is with railroad rails, they fuse them together in 1/4 and 1/2 mile long sections with thermite. I would expect there would be a LOT of residue from a steel building.
-The explanation for the lobbies begin blown out that I have heard was that the heat from the fires as well as all the spilled jet fuel in the elevator shafts caused the cables to snap and the free falling elevator carsblew out the doors at the lobby levels. The extreme heat from the fires rendered the emergency brakes on the cars ineffective.

Oh, I find it hilarious that people are so attached to an episode of 'The Lone Gunmen' that they are certain that 9/11 was a government operation. LOL

-Lego

[Axelgear]

The liquid flowing off there is aluminium. Aluminium glows different colours at different temperatures, and turns light orange at around 1800 F. Also, if you look at pictures of it, the metal falling turns silvery-grey as it approaches the ground, which molten steel would not do. It would, instead, turn near-black in colour but this is not what we see.

Interestingly enough, there's a fun little calculation that is put forth on the topic. A lot of 9/11 Truthers claim that the material falling is molten iron, created by thermite as you seem to espouse. Thing is, someone did a size comparison of the droplets falling to the size of the window and arrived at a figure of 30 tons. Thermite requires two pounds of material for each pound of molten iron produced. In short, that's 60 tons of thermite that'd have to have been moved and stored in the WTC without anyone noticing. Not the office workers, the employees... No-one.

Now, as for other things. The buckling of the building is clearly very visible. There's images of it in any close-up footage you watch. It's not something you have to take on faith, you can very plainly see it. The science fits it too, so it makes obvious sense. As for the lobby being "blown out", I've never heard of anything like that. If you're referring to the smoke at the base, though, that's very easily explained. I'll wait to see your answer before I bother typing out even more.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to in terms of the thermite bit here. Care to clarify?

Lastly:

-In Vietnam, it's hard to tell who started the war. The idea generally would be, though, that the Vietnamese had some part in its beginning, since they live in Vietnam. If you mean America's involvement, though, yes, that is suspect.

-The USS Liberty, meanwhile, has survivor stories but survivors telling their perspective are not the best people to talk to. After all, they'll infer things they can't possibly know (Like if someone on the other side saw something or not). The entire reason the Israeli fighters ceased their attack and called it off was because they later realized their mistake and reported the letters on the boat were not in Arabic.

-Prescott Bush's charges of treason are hardly damning. The guy had investments in companies that worked with other companies that helped finance Nazi Germany's rise to power. Specifically, he had investments in Brown Brothers Harriman, a private investment bank, which gave investment money to German businesses. It's not exactly what I'd call sedition. His only real connection to the Nazi Party was a man named Fritz Thyssen, who owned a business that used the bank's services and Thyssen gave money to the Nazis of his own accord and became a party member.

To be honest, though, I don't see what Prescott Bush's actions have to do with anything. It's like saying that, because my father is a bad person, I must be one too. Thank goodness we don't let that kind of reasoning run our lives...

[Haseri]

Poised, do you honestly think any government is competant enough to cover someth

You know, I was going to say something, but I don't want to have to read the eye-straining reply.

So: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7984054.stm

edit: 1000 posts

[Poised]

-You give the explanation yourself as to why it is not aluminum, in order for aluminum to change colour it would have to reach blast furnace temperatures, but you claim the temperatures were only 1100f, and at 1100f molten aluminum looks like liquid silver, it is very distinctly silvery looking.

Here you have aluminum at the temperature you claim the fires burned at  <----> and here you have it at blast furnace temperature.
                                 

I believe the temperatures were at blast furnace+ degrees in those towers at some points in time, but thats because I believe thermate was used wich burns at extreme temperatures, but how would you explain the temperature being hot enough for the flowing molten metal to be aluminum ??

-Here is a clip from the Naudet brothers video in relation to the blown out lobby, this is 90+ floors below where the airplane hit, and please dont say jet fuel traveled down the elevators, the fuel burned off long before the heat could even remotely start to effect anything about the elevator cables or brakes, there are offcause many eye and earwitness reports that give alternate explanations, but since this was a deviation from the topic to begin with then I wont deviate any further unless we must.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzwRcZcXIrk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzwRcZcXIrk</a>

-And again, the buckling of the exterior does not equal sagging floors heated by jet fuel, its an event that can be caused by many things.

-Im not sure how much clearer I can make it in regards to the report, the heat required to produce the residue found in the WTC dust is not consistent with a jet fuel fire.


-Concluding that the vietnamese started the war because they lived in Vietnam, is like concluding that the Iraqis started the present war because they live in Iraq, nonsense.

-Have you read any of the reports from the survivors ? here is a quote from one of them :"If it was an accident, it was the best planned accident I've ever heard of"

-How does "trading with the enemy in a time of war" not equal treason ??

Poised, do you honestly think any government is competant enough to cover someth

Heh that right there boggles my mind every day

[Axelgear]

Oyshamaroo...

The temperature did reach, near the end, 1800F. THAT is the number I claimed and am claiming. I might've gotten confused and said otherwise, but it did reach 1800F. At around 1000C, or 1800F, that is the colour aluminium turns. This supports that it was aluminium dripping as molten metal and strikes this from any evidence for your side.

Sagging floors from heat ARE caused by jet fuel fires, as evidenced by what you can see occurring through the hole in the wall of one of the towers. As for the lobby "explosions", they could've been caused by anything. Here's what an electric transformer exploding looks like.

Now, as for the fires, what residue are you talking about? The thermite chips? Because we've already been over how those could've been created and how thermite is illogical as it would have required 60 tons of material.

It's also ridiculously improbable.

Since a pound of thermite takes up a good portion of a paint can, there's 2000 pounds in a ton, and it would've taken at least 60 tons of thermite having to fill the building to produce the liquid metal you claim is caused by thermite. We're talking an amount equivalent to roughly 120,000 paint cans. You'd have filled room after room with paint cans, piling it high, and you're saying no-one would notice this?

As for the residue and the heat consistency, I'd like to see what evidence you have of that so I can get materials on it.

-Saying that the Vietnamese started the war refers to their leadership. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

-Survivors quotes are notoriously spotty. Again, they're inferring something they couldn't possibly know. It's like someone saying that you're saying all this to troll. You might not be, you probably aren't, but what proof do you have to deny it? From their perspective, it's the truth, but they're not you so they can't tell.

-Trading with the enemy, in the sense of building weapons for them, could be construed as treason. They were, however, a bank. To suddenly cancel and halt trading with their customers would've been theft. Imagine if you held your money and mortgage with a bank from another country and war broke out between you, then, suddenly, you couldn't access your money because the bank would be "trading with the enemy" to let you do so.


We need to move this somewhere else.

[Axelgear]

This is a double post but it's so that a mod can move that without getting rid of this article: Bankers don't want the bail-outs!

[Kenobro]

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7014680181

Apparently, North Korea has launched a rocket.

[Null]

Apparently. They have said they were going to for weeks now.

[Ultimatum]

Apparently. NK's missle landed in the pacific.

[Poised]

I have seen the video that tries to debunk the thermate, so I know what numbers you are refering to, but the thing is, they just throw out those numbers in the video, they give absolutely no explanation as to how a mostly oxygen starved fire can reach impossible 1800f, and they give absolutely no explanation for the numbers they arrive at when calculating the proposed amount of thermate used, their entire presentation is pure theory, and thus the numbers you are mentioning doesnt really have any meaning, since they arent based on anything if they are derived from the debunk video.

I do however agree that we have taken it far enough here, and whoever thought I was trolling, shame on you, I quite enjoyed having an open discussion about something as controversial as coverups, and I thank you for keeping it friendly and civil Axel, sorry for not replying sooner but I was installing a new MB.

[Axelgear]

The numbers were arrived at by monitoring the amount of material falling from the window, which was claimed to be molten iron from a thermite burn. The generally arrived at number, if it were aluminium, would be about 10 tons of molten aluminium, gathered by counting the amount of metal slugs falling in captured video and referring their size to the size of the windows (Which, in some frames, actually totals around 2250 pounds of metal). However, iron is denser, roughly three times denser, than aluminium. This number translates into roughly 30 tons of molten iron. It's on a lot of debunking websites out there.

As for "oxygen-starved" fires, I don't know why you would suggest a gaping wound in a building would be starved for oxygen. Dark smoke is created in any fire that has ample burnable materials to produce, a fact I am greatly aware of from seeing my own home going up in smoke.

Personally, what I still find wonderfully incredulous is that this is plausible. Wouldn't it have been just as easy to have a terrorist plot to burn through building supports and have the whole thing topple? You could, quite literally, have the terrorists on news cameras, get plausible deniability... You could do what was done with Afghanistan and have the weapons be sold to them from an outsider and... I could go on and on about ways that this could be done in a way that is far easier and far less easily tracked down.

I'm always glad to have a civil debate, but we'd need to have this elsewhere to continue... Not that I see either of us stopping any time soon.

[Snork]

Remember this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women
In some country's it's gotten worse:
In a part of pakistan, women over the age of eight can no longer go to school.
Not only that, in afghanistan, they;ve actually legalized rape.
I am appaled, and extreamly sickened by the treatment  of these poor women.
I hope Egypt doesn't except the taliban D:

[Axelgear]

Actually, what they did was restore Afghanistan to an interpretation of Shia law. The new law states:

"As long as the husband is not traveling, he has the right to have sexual intercourse with his wife every fourth night, unless the wife is ill or has any kind of illness that intercourse could aggravate, the wife is bound to give a positive response to the sexual desires of her husband."

It's the most bizarre form of law, and one could possibly see challenge from the number of Afghani women rapidly gaining political power. Of course, it might not. After all, in Japan, it's still legal for a man to rape his wife and judges can dismiss a woman's rape claim in any case if they feel that she did not defend herself in a way they deem a natural response, essentially claiming they wanted it.

These kinds of laws are not limited to the Middle East. The simplest solution is not to get married (After all, if the marriage contract includes this consideration, then you can't really say otherwise. It's like a prostitute taking money and then saying no and any touch thereafter is rape; you signed the contract and agreed to its terms). However, I find do find such laws stupid and they should be removed from the contracts, but this is, by far, the least aggressive of any. It actually has limits and considerations, after all.