Author Topic: The Gun Topic  (Read 191440 times)

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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #540 on: June 13, 2008, 03:30:35 pm »
Here in reasonably-sane-land, police officers don't ubiquitously carry guns. That's because they don't need to worry about being shot, because there aren't enough guns around for that to be realistic threat to the average officer. That's because of gun control. The end result of all of this is fewer people getting shot, which is a desirable thing.

Tell that to Russian cops.

I think your "people can be killed by lead pipes, so there's no point in gun control" is cute, and also really stupid. I can knock it down (like it's been knocked down every other time you brought it up) in one of two ways by exaggerating it: "You're taking away my sarin gas and cluster bombs? Fine, I'll just use a lead pipe instead!" or just pointing out how meaningless it really is. I mean, if you're that worried about someone coming at you with a lead pipe while you're separated from your precious guns, why not just carry your own lead pipe around? Or, better yet, just run away.

Sarin gas is illegal due to its inability for accurate use. Explosives are the same. Still, guns are easier to control a situation with. If you are trying to kill someone, a gun might make it easier to do the job with.

As for the lead pipe bit, believe it or not, it's illegal here...

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« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 03:32:30 pm by Axelgear »
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Offline 762

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #541 on: June 13, 2008, 03:36:34 pm »
I'm against gun control just because in any truly free society, the people should always be able to change the government. Some governments don't allow themselves to be changed, and it takes a revolution to change them. That's why it's important to let people have guns.

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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #542 on: June 13, 2008, 03:45:47 pm »
That is one reason and a very good one, 762. That's why it was enshrined in the US Constitution.

I should also add that, if the woman, whose name I will not mention, had a gun, she could've fought back. The murderer, a police officer, didn't buy his gun legally. He got it from the government, and even if he couldn't have gotten it through the straight and narrow, he could have stolen one from evidence, requisitioned one, or gotten one in other various illegal ways. The government took her ability to get a gun away, though, as she was a law abiding citizen. Her death may have been unavoidable, he could've killed her without her having seen it coming but she could've also fought back and won. In the end, no-one knows whether she would have lived or died if she had a gun, but the fact is, she would have had a chance.

Edit: Again, I have to ask, why grant the usage of firearms to police officers and not the law abiding citizen? And why can public comfort (Not safety, as England/Wales is proof that, before and after the extreme restriction and near-banning of guns, crime rates and numbers actually went up relating to guns being used in them) override personal rights?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 03:48:02 pm by Axelgear »
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Offline Yokto

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #543 on: June 13, 2008, 05:14:24 pm »
Axel swords have never been common. At least not with the common man. the common man owned axes and knifes at best. This is of course depended a lot on what era and part of the world you are looking at. Also in many societies weapons where regulated.

And in many they weren't. Swords, axes, knives... They all carried a multi-use weapon and short swords were not uncommon.
[/quote]
I do not know any era where the common man have used swords. Be it short or long swords. Farmers normally used farming implements to defend them self. Yes sometimes even going to war with just a pitchfork and a scythe. (Which can be deadly weapons in the right hand but hardly designed for the job.)

But if you have some facts about how common sword usage was during its glory days then please present them.
In that sense its not that different form the gun today. Those that tend to own the most guns tend to be those with higher income. At least based on one of the pdf files that was used as a source of one of the links you gave.

.... Should I point out that the Romans were ruling over the Swedes as tyrants and took their weapons to keep them from kicking them out and taking over their own country?

Naaaah....


What are you talking about? There have never been a Roman ruling over Sweden. I see you have never studied Swedish history unlike some of use. The Romans never got further then Germania which they never did manage to successfully conquer.

Of course back then there was no real Kingdom of Sweden. Just a lot of small tribes. But still.

Where do you get these ideas form anyway? >_>
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #544 on: June 13, 2008, 05:42:08 pm »
I do not know any era where the common man have used swords. Be it short or long swords. Farmers normally used farming implements to defend them self. Yes sometimes even going to war with just a pitchfork and a scythe. (Which can be deadly weapons in the right hand but hardly designed for the job.)

But if you have some facts about how common sword usage was during its glory days then please present them.

Well, it's not exactly like statistics are common from then. I don't have any statistics to say that swords were rare or common during those periods. The closest thing I can find quickly is this link. The answer is that swords were fairly common, but it doesn't go deep.

What are you talking about? There have never been a Roman ruling over Sweden. I see you have never studied Swedish history unlike some of use. The Romans never got further then Germania which they never did manage to successfully conquer.

Of course back then there was no real Kingdom of Sweden. Just a lot of small tribes. But still.

Where do you get these ideas form anyway? >_>

Ah. I assumed you were quoting a Roman historian due to a Roman occupation at that time.
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Offline Yokto

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #545 on: June 13, 2008, 06:05:27 pm »
Quote
While swords were expensive and sometimes difficult to obtain, there were commoners who not only possessed swords, but also were quite proficient with them

Quote taken form this page. Like you said it did not go in deep in to what people in medieval Europe used. But I do mention correctly that swords where expensive. Sure there where commoners that used swords. Mainly people living in cities. But those where rare. Most people live out in the country during this time and worked as farmers. Remember when they talk about commoners they talk about people that do not belong to nobility or the clergy. The clergy by the way seldom used swords. Pretty much only the Military Orders used swords when it came to the clergy (Crusaders.)

I know that during the viking age only those with a lot of wealth could afford a sword. Axes and spears being more common amongst the average viking. (This probably was also depended on the quality. Some swords are known to be of very poor quality made of soft iron wiles others being made for high quality Pattern welding steel)

And no i mentored the historian because he happened to document what was going on in what they viewed as the barbaric north.
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Offline Clockwerk

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #546 on: June 13, 2008, 06:09:55 pm »
I'm against gun control just because in any truly free society, the people should always be able to change the government. Some governments don't allow themselves to be changed, and it takes a revolution to change them. That's why it's important to let people have guns.

I agree with this statement.  The United States Constitution was created as a result of one revolution.  Not the one againest Great Britian, but because of one led by Daniel Shays that helped expose the weakness of the Articles of Confederation forcing people to gather to fix it which led to the Constitutional Convention and the Constitution.  Until Shay's Rebellion very few of the states tried to fix the problems of a weak central Government, but once it occured the problem could not be ignored.
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #547 on: June 13, 2008, 06:29:27 pm »
Quote taken form this page. Like you said it did not go in deep in to what people in medieval Europe used. But I do mention correctly that swords where expensive. Sure there where commoners that used swords. Mainly people living in cities. But those where rare. Most people live out in the country during this time and worked as farmers. Remember when they talk about commoners they talk about people that do not belong to nobility or the clergy. The clergy by the way seldom used swords. Pretty much only the Military Orders used swords when it came to the clergy (Crusaders.)

City livers, especially in the Renaissance, carried swords. The farmers carried whatever was available. As for Crusaders, remember that, by and large, Crusaders were just civilians answering the church's call.

Still, you're right. The farmers didn't need swords because they already had similar weapons. It was the people who lived in the more populated cities who carried swords.

I know that during the viking age only those with a lot of wealth could afford a sword. Axes and spears being more common amongst the average viking. (This probably was also depended on the quality. Some swords are known to be of very poor quality made of soft iron wiles others being made for high quality Pattern welding steel)

It all depends on region, time, availability.... Sadly, we don't have much information for the times. You're right, though, that it is primarily city dwellers who carried swords.

And no i mentored the historian because he happened to document what was going on in what they viewed as the barbaric north.

Alright. Clearly, this didn't happen everywhere, though.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #548 on: June 15, 2008, 12:31:40 pm »
At least try to back that up.

I know from the research that goes into the historical reenactment I do (and my girlfriend has done research on this as well, as she's currently pointing out to me) that many people carried knives, but swords were carried by almost no-one. The amount of work and materials that go into making a sword is extremely prohibitive. Swords require two cutting edges (requiring high quality steel) and a lot of working to create. They were status symbols for the gentry, but barely anyone carried anything more than a knife.

PS. Apparently according to my gf, murder rates in medieval Oxford were 110 per 100,000, almost all taking place between adult men, and were spontaneous for the most part, and 26/36 homicides used knives.

Offline HanianKnight

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #549 on: June 15, 2008, 01:14:43 pm »
Why is everyone talking about knives?
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Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #550 on: June 15, 2008, 01:16:14 pm »
Why is everyone talking about knives?

Guns are like so five minutes ago!!

knives are the *in* thing now geez everybody knows that!

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Offline HanianKnight

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #551 on: June 15, 2008, 01:17:06 pm »
DAYUM!

I got told.
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Offline Mr. Consideration

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #552 on: June 15, 2008, 01:35:36 pm »
Why is everyone talking about knives?

Why, This is the Knife Control topic! Where else would we discuss Knives?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 01:43:58 pm by Mr. Consideration »
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #553 on: June 15, 2008, 01:36:38 pm »
Before I say anything, apparently I was wrong about swords. Doesn't mean people didn't carry around a sharp weapon wherever they went, be it an axe or a knife or whatever.

Apparently according to my gf, murder rates in medieval Oxford were 110 per 100,000, almost all taking place between adult men, and were spontaneous for the most part, and 26/36 homicides used knives.

Interesting. We've come a long way, seeing as no recorded country in the world has it that bad any more...
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Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #554 on: June 15, 2008, 07:16:22 pm »
I'm against gun control just because in any truly free society, the people should always be able to change the government.

it's a good thing people like you weren't around in 1860