Author Topic: The Gun Topic  (Read 191439 times)

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Offline Bona Fide Supraman

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #525 on: June 13, 2008, 10:07:36 am »
I definitely think the police should have them. I mean, it's their job. If anything they should use them more.

On the other hand, I don't think the general public should have them.

I mean, a gun is built with its purpose entirely to kill people.

That's why they were invented and produced.

That's why they are as good as they are today.

Don't argue that fact.
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Offline Yokto

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #526 on: June 13, 2008, 10:08:09 am »
Well i guess the point is Axel that it could support ether side as the facts do not tell us a lot in this case. Though as i see it those 35% that are from Family or Friends are most likely legal guns even if they have been stolen by the user to commit a crime. So it is like that safe storage of guns are probably the biggest issue. I know in Sweden is one of the biggest issues (if not the major one). Most guns used in Sweden in crimes are stole i believe. And often the issue is that these weapons where not stored in a correct manner. (Even the military have lost guns showing that is a serious problem that have been used in criminal activities. Such laxed policy in storing guns must be stopped.)



Oh btw. Not every police have carried a gun (or does so now.) I prefer none lethal weapons my self for the average law enforcer.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 10:10:54 am by Yokto »
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #527 on: June 13, 2008, 10:15:04 am »
I'm fine with storing them safely. If it isn't somehow in your possession (I.E. In your nightstand while you're in bed, in your holster, on the table while you repair it, etc.), you should lock it in a safe or at least put a trigger lock on it. Take some sort of precaution, really.

That said, though, you can't be blamed if something of yours is stolen and then used in a crime, right?

I definitely think the police should have them. I mean, it's their job. If anything they should use them more.

I think you mean have them, not use them. That, I agree with.

On the other hand, I don't think the general public should have them.

Why not? The police are just human beings, like you and I, and I want a gun for the same reason they're granted to the police: To defend myself and others.

I mean, a gun is built with its purpose entirely to kill people.

That's why they were invented and produced.

That's why they are as good as they are today.

Don't argue that fact.

Weren't sharp tools created to kill? All knives developed from stone tools exclusively to kill, their secondary use has only developed over time.

Still, though, that repetitive point aside, any time a gun is used, you can pretty much guarantee they're used to kill. That's an amoral thing. The why of it is what matters. If having the power to kill was somehow immoral, we should take away that power from everyone, police and military included.
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Offline Yokto

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #528 on: June 13, 2008, 10:20:46 am »
Well i am just making a guess here but i think that knives where develop to cut stuff and not to be use as weapons primary. But i am not sure. A rock tend to be deadly without a sharp edge. But i guess not one can prove it ether way.
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Offline Bona Fide Supraman

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #529 on: June 13, 2008, 10:21:02 am »

On the other hand, I don't think the general public should have them.

Why not? The police are just human beings, like you and I, and I want a gun for the same reason they're granted to the police: To defend myself and others.

But you shouldn't defend yourself. That is the job of the police and that's why they should have them.

For a start they are trained to use them.

And otherwise you would just end up with militias.

Seriously, if you put the law into citizens' hands then, well it wouldn't be good
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #530 on: June 13, 2008, 10:37:07 am »
But you shouldn't defend yourself. That is the job of the police and that's why they should have them.

Ex-CUSE me!? ... *Deep breath*

Okay, well, let's go over a few things.

1. Where did the police begin? As local militias. Normal people gathered their own weapons and organized to defend their towns. Then, people organized further and paid a few to guard the town full time. The police are normal people who are given weapons and supplies. By us, for us. How are they anything less than normal people?

2. I WANT to defend myself. The police can help, sure. Let them. I welcome their assistance. It doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to defend myself. If you rely on the police, an alarm, a dog... You're relying on someone else to defend YOU. I would much rather be allowed to defend myself. Sure, if I can, I'll let the police handle it, but if my life is in imminent danger, 911 isn't really going to help that much...

3. If we shouldn't defend ourselves, then the whole basis for the police evaporates. You can't really say "You shouldn't defend yourself" and then say that the police have the job to do so because the police were created as an attempt at self-defense. They are inherently flawed to a degree in that respect, but that's why they came to be.

For a start they are trained to use them.

And that makes them less susceptible to kill people... How? A part of licensing is that you have to undergo simple training. A part of CCP's, in some places, is learning to shoot and carry safely in public, and the gun club my family visits regularly runs training courses akin to police training. In fact, many members have run training courses FOR the police. We license people to use cars because we know they're at least marginally capable with them and more people are killed by cars than anything else. That's why I'm okay with gun licensing; because you're letting competent people get what they need to protect themselves.

And otherwise you would just end up with militias.

The police are a militia. They're a militia being paid full time. They are ordinary people who have taken up arms to defend the populace. They are more regulated and regimented, but it doesn't make them stop being militia.

Seriously, if you put the law into citizens' hands then, well it wouldn't be good

Well, the law IS in our hands, but that's not what I want so much as being able to defend oneself.



Edit: As to Yokto's statement, it used to be, in Western society when swords were still about, you carried a sword everywhere. The sword was also your table knife and multi-tool. It was used for everything but it was created, first and foremost, as a weapon. This was in the days long before the fork came about, really. Since guns have arisen, swords have declined, though, and so has the usage of knives as a killing tool.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 10:40:41 am by Axelgear »
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Offline Bona Fide Supraman

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #531 on: June 13, 2008, 10:44:17 am »
Well the police have extensive training and screening. Yes they are normal people, but they are normal people that are not likely to go on a killing spree.

I know they aren't superhuman.
 
And again, if you allow everyone to constantly carry guns in order to use them for self defence, what is stopping someone shooting somebody they didn't like and claiming self defence? And what is stopping people being killed for minor crimes, such as just walking across somebodies property?
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #532 on: June 13, 2008, 10:55:06 am »
Well the police have extensive training and screening. Yes they are normal people, but they are normal people that are not likely to go on a killing spree.

Seeing as how a family friend was murdered by a police officer, I'm inclined to disagree. She was a soccer mother who was killed in cold blood. Coincidentally, it took six years to get to trial, during which time he was walking free. He killed her while off duty, by the way.

A police officer, trained and screened, committed murder. The same screening used for them is used for gun licenses. The extensive training typically amounts to the same given at gun ranges, though gun ranges don't always have the top-notch facilities or courses that the police have and they usually instruct them better on how to store the weapon.

The training that my mother and brother had to go through to get black-badge certified was very similar to what police officers undergo at ranges, and they do Mozambique shoots for fun (Which are also quite similar to the shooting stuff police officers do but is more demanding in some ways and less demanding in others). To get a CCP in some places, you also have to undergo police-style training to a higher degree.

So, people who shoot have to be trained and they have to be screened in manners very much like those given to police. Are you going to drop those reasons?

And again, if you allow everyone to constantly carry guns in order to use them for self defence, what is stopping someone shooting somebody they didn't like and claiming self defence? And what is stopping people being killed for minor crimes, such as just walking across somebodies property?

What's stopping someone from stabbing someone they don't like and claiming self defense? Or running them over? And signs like "Trespassers Will Be Shot" exist for a reason. You're also supposed to yell "Stop or I will shoot", though you're unlikely to be charged if you shoot first because, let's be honest, if you don't know if they have a weapon or not, your life could be at risk and you have reason to shoot. Police officers can do this, so why not the average citizen?


Edit: Another fun reason why not to give Police Officers all the power. Sure, the police are typically there to protect you from criminals, but what happens when the police ARE the criminals? These guys ganged up and beat a man and then tried to suppress right to free speech. They got out on bail.

Yep, they commit violent assault, try to hide evidence, and then GET OUT ON BAIL.

So much for the idea that police don't commit mass-murder

Officer's "training" leads to a five year old dieing

I don't think cops are bad people, though there are bad cops. Just because some people are bad, don't take away the ability to defend themselves from all of them.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 11:05:17 am by Axelgear »
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Offline /lurk

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #533 on: June 13, 2008, 11:22:34 am »
Seeing as how a family friend was murdered by a police officer, I'm inclined to disagree. She was a soccer mother who was killed in cold blood. Coincidentally, it took six years to get to trial, during which time he was walking free. He killed her while off duty, by the way.

A police officer, trained and screened, committed murder. The same screening used for them is used for gun licenses. The extensive training typically amounts to the same given at gun ranges, though gun ranges don't always have the top-notch facilities or courses that the police have and they usually instruct them better on how to store the weapon.

What did I tell you about making points that contradict your argument?
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #534 on: June 13, 2008, 11:25:22 am »
How is this counter to my argument? She had no gun, she tried to escape, and she failed. He did, she died. Fat lot of good the police did, especially since one of them killed her.

What I'm saying is, there's no reason to give guns to police officers and not to the average person because there's good and evil examples of both. In fact, police officers can be the worst because they get preferential treatment quite often. There's no reason to give them to police officers and not to normal people.
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Offline Bona Fide Supraman

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #535 on: June 13, 2008, 11:28:43 am »
I'm not saying police officers should have guns all the time, just whilst on duty.
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Offline /lurk

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #536 on: June 13, 2008, 11:30:43 am »
How is this counter to my argument? She had no gun, she tried to escape, and she failed. He did, she died. Fat lot of good the police did, especially since one of them killed her.

What I'm saying is, there's no reason to give guns to police officers and not to the average person because there's good and evil examples of both. In fact, police officers can be the worst because they get preferential treatment quite often. There's no reason to give them to police officers and not to normal people.

He apparently passed all the screening and licensing requirements to own a gun, bought one and used it to kill someone.

If he didn't have a gun, your woman would probably still be alive. Just sayin'.
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Offline Yokto

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #537 on: June 13, 2008, 11:33:43 am »
Axel swords have never been common. At least not with the common man. the common man owned axes and knifes at best. This is of course depended a lot on what era and part of the world you are looking at. Also in many societies weapons where regulated. One example.

Quote from: Roman historian Tacitus
The Swedes (Suiones) had no right to carry arms, but that the weapons were locked inside and protected by a slave only to be distributed when they were attacked by enemies.

(quote taken form Wikipedia. Topic about Thralls)

In that sense its not that different form the gun today. Those that tend to own the most guns tend to be those with higher income. At least based on one of the pdf files that was used as a source of one of the links you gave.
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #538 on: June 13, 2008, 03:11:43 pm »
Axel swords have never been common. At least not with the common man. the common man owned axes and knifes at best. This is of course depended a lot on what era and part of the world you are looking at. Also in many societies weapons where regulated.

And in many they weren't. Swords, axes, knives... They all carried a multi-use weapon and short swords were not uncommon.

In that sense its not that different form the gun today. Those that tend to own the most guns tend to be those with higher income. At least based on one of the pdf files that was used as a source of one of the links you gave.

.... Should I point out that the Romans were ruling over the Swedes as tyrants and took their weapons to keep them from kicking them out and taking over their own country?

Naaaah....

I'm not saying police officers should have guns all the time, just whilst on duty.

In case you didn't notice, all the cases of the videos I posted referred to officers while on duty. Besides, what makes them any more competent/trustworthy when on duty than off?

He apparently passed all the screening and licensing requirements to own a gun, bought one and used it to kill someone.

If he didn't have a gun, your woman would probably still be alive. Just sayin'.

Well, he was a murderer, so I imagine he could've gotten one anyway. He was a police officer, so he knows who to talk to if he wanted one illegally, and the gun given to him was government-issued. He could've also used a knife or an axe. People have killed with both. Or a piece of pipe. Or his bare hands.

Even if he didn't have a gun, he could've killed her. If she had a gun, she could've fought back.

Still, if you want to argue that, shouldn't we stop police officers having guns?
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Offline /lurk

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Re: Gun Control. Why?
« Reply #539 on: June 13, 2008, 03:27:52 pm »
Here in reasonably-sane-land, police officers don't ubiquitously carry guns. That's because they don't need to worry about being shot, because there aren't enough guns around for that to be realistic threat to the average officer. That's because of gun control. The end result of all of this is fewer people getting shot, which is a desirable thing.

I think your "people can be killed by lead pipes, so there's no point in gun control" is cute, and also really stupid. I can knock it down (like it's been knocked down every other time you brought it up) in one of two ways by exaggerating it: "You're taking away my sarin gas and cluster bombs? Fine, I'll just use a lead pipe instead!" or just pointing out how meaningless it really is. I mean, if you're that worried about someone coming at you with a lead pipe while you're separated from your precious guns, why not just carry your own lead pipe around? Or, better yet, just run away.
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