Author Topic: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage  (Read 31012 times)

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Offline HolsteinCow

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« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 03:06:38 pm by LadyM »



Offline Plank of Wood

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2008, 02:24:50 pm »
For possesing saliva you get arrested? What the-
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2008, 02:32:49 pm »
"Salvia" PoW, not saliva :D
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Offline Andrew Ryan

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2008, 02:37:24 pm »
Funny, I never even heard of this drug before. However it sounds kinda like LSD so... I say ban it.
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2008, 02:50:01 pm »
Ryan, why did you even TAKE that name if you espouse none of the values it carries?

Don't ban drugs. Let people choose what they do with their own bodies. If they want to poison themselves, so be it.
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Offline The Time Traveller

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2008, 02:50:18 pm »
For possesing saliva you get arrested? What the-
I was gonna say.
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2008, 02:55:30 pm »
According to the article the drug causes people to act abnormally and may lead to depression. The ban seems logical to me.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2008, 02:56:28 pm »
Only if you believe that you should take away people's right to do with their life as they see fit...
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Offline Daxx

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2008, 02:58:31 pm »
Only if you believe that you should take away people's right to do with their life as they see fit...

Okay, you go make Sarin gas and build a nuclear bomb then.

See how easy that argument is to dismantle? I'm surprised you're still trying to make it after it's been pointed out to you in other threads.

Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2008, 03:00:39 pm »
According to the article the drug causes people to act abnormally and may lead to depression. The ban seems logical to me.

Do you believe in banning alcohol?

Offline Ultramarine

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2008, 03:01:10 pm »
I agree with Daxx and Pat.

And maybe the ban might be good, they said it's only in that state right?
If so what's the big deal?
Kid: Oh wow I'm being deflowered by a grown woman!
Mother: By the way I'm your mother
Kid: OH GOD NO

EDIT: That's where it becomes rape if you were wondering.

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Offline Daxx

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2008, 03:02:55 pm »
Wait, what are you agreeing with me for? I don't meant to suggest that I'm in favour of the ban, since I don't know anything about Salvia beyond a very basic knowledge that it exists and it is (or was) one of those "legal high" things. I'm not nearly informed enough to make a judgement.

Offline Werechicken

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2008, 03:04:16 pm »
Only if you believe that you should take away people's right to do with their life as they see fit...
Hands up those who believe this confirms that Axelgear goes out of his way to pick arguments?

I mean "I don't see why a government body should ban a hallucinogenic drug that can alter peoples behavior, people should be allowed to do what they want" - Are you serious?
What have you got against intellectual midgets? They're quite smart little guys as far as i can tell.

Offline Ultramarine

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2008, 03:05:09 pm »
Wait, what are you agreeing with me for? I don't meant to suggest that I'm in favour of the ban, since I don't know anything about Salvia beyond a very basic knowledge that it exists and it is (or was) one of those "legal high" things. I'm not nearly informed enough to make a judgement.

Oh, sorry for the confusion.

I agreed with the banning opinion of Pat, and the AxelGear thing with you.
Just to clarify, sorry about that and no offense AxelGear.
Kid: Oh wow I'm being deflowered by a grown woman!
Mother: By the way I'm your mother
Kid: OH GOD NO

EDIT: That's where it becomes rape if you were wondering.

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Offline Axelgear

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Re: down with the senate
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2008, 03:07:13 pm »
Okay, you go make Sarin gas and build a nuclear bomb then.

See how easy that argument is to dismantle? I'm surprised you're still trying to make it after it's been pointed out to you in other threads.

Actually, Daxx, aside from the natural holes there, we're not talking about weapons, we're talking about substances for personal use and sale. Why allow alcohol and cigarettes but not these things? They're all mind-altering substances.

And, yes, I am Werechicken. Very serious. If I want to take a knife now and cut off my own finger, it's my life, my choice, my body, and my risk. You don't have a say in what I do with any of those things unless it impacts on you.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2008, 03:08:39 pm »
Okay, so legalise crack and heroin then. ::) The same argument applies.

Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2008, 03:11:58 pm »
legislators will keep us safe from ourselves no matter what, i trust them with my life qtiyd

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2008, 03:13:59 pm »
Okay, so legalise crack and heroin then. ::) The same argument applies.
Sure, why not? Legalize every drug. It's their body, they can use the stuff if they want.

Besides, for the people who would abuse it, they would die out fast, then eventually things would settle down.

Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2008, 03:15:50 pm »
That sounds like a good idea actually.

Legalise it and people wouldn't be fighting and killing for it.
Crime rates would drop, people more civil, but the only disadvantages would be accidents.
Kid: Oh wow I'm being deflowered by a grown woman!
Mother: By the way I'm your mother
Kid: OH GOD NO

EDIT: That's where it becomes rape if you were wondering.

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Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2008, 03:16:42 pm »
Sure, why not? Legalize every drug. It's their body, they can use the stuff if they want.

Besides, for the people who would abuse it, they would die out fast, then eventually things would settle down.

this is dumb

Offline The Time Traveller

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2008, 03:18:50 pm »
"Diviner's Sage"?  Are you a drug addict Holstein?
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Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2008, 03:20:49 pm »
"Diviner's Sage"?  Are you a drug addict Holstein?

it's not a drug it's a gateway to another dimension

Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2008, 03:21:57 pm »
No, it's just a gateway medicinal plant :P
Cousin of LSD.

They hang out on weekends.
Kid: Oh wow I'm being deflowered by a grown woman!
Mother: By the way I'm your mother
Kid: OH GOD NO

EDIT: That's where it becomes rape if you were wondering.

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Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2008, 03:23:37 pm »
Sure, why not? Legalize every drug. It's their body, they can use the stuff if they want.

Besides, for the people who would abuse it, they would die out fast, then eventually things would settle down.

this is dumb
Well, that's just perfect.

Care to back up your statement, rather than be an idiot and say "this is dumb"?

Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2008, 03:24:21 pm »
Sure, why not? Legalize every drug. It's their body, they can use the stuff if they want.

Besides, for the people who would abuse it, they would die out fast, then eventually things would settle down.

this is dumb
Well, that's just perfect.

Care to back up your statement, rather then be an idiot and say "this is dumb"?

libertarians  ::)

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2008, 03:26:07 pm »
.... Wow, you're just chock full of that crap, aren't you?

Are you gonna actually deign to talk about it, or just shake your head and mumble like the good little sheep you are?

Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2008, 03:27:15 pm »
Alright calm down.

Let him believe what he wants, just shows that he can't back up his argument.
Let it go...
Kid: Oh wow I'm being deflowered by a grown woman!
Mother: By the way I'm your mother
Kid: OH GOD NO

EDIT: That's where it becomes rape if you were wondering.

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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2008, 03:27:23 pm »
Okay, so legalise crack and heroin then. ::) The same argument applies.

... You say that like you expect me to disagree... I think those things should be legal too. Let people waste their brain, it's their body and life to waste. You don't have a right to say they can't do it because you claim to know better.

legislators will keep us safe from ourselves no matter what, i trust them with my life qtiyd

.........



That sounds like a good idea actually.

Legalise it and people wouldn't be fighting and killing for it.
Crime rates would drop, people more civil, but the only disadvantages would be accidents.

Finally someone who gets it! Yes! Billions no longer spent on a pointless, self-righteous "War on Drugs" and legitimate industries set up to let people buy it, removing power from gangs and bringing a bit more law and order back into the world.



And, DoctorZ, I like you.

Holstein, don't say "Libertarian" like it's an insult. It really isn't.
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Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2008, 03:34:26 pm »
That sounds like a good idea actually.

Legalise it and people wouldn't be fighting and killing for it.
Crime rates would drop, people more civil, but the only disadvantages would be accidents.

Finally someone who gets it! Yes! Billions no longer spent on a pointless, self-righteous "War on Drugs" and legitimate industries set up to let people buy it, removing power from gangs and bringing a bit more law and order back into the world.

this is dumb

legalizing the sale of weed will make the people that control the marijuana farms a lot more powerful

who do you think controls the marijuana farms

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2008, 03:35:01 pm »
I'm all for legalizing EVERYTHING, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

Like, legalizing guns (for hunting), but not murder. Legalizing sex (AKA bring down that damned age-limit, to like... 16.) but not rape, etc.

@Holstein: If they legalize it... the government will.

Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2008, 03:37:22 pm »
I'm all for legalizing EVERYTHING, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

Like, legalizing guns (for hunting), but not murder. Legalizing sex (AKA bring down that damned age-limit, to like... 16.) but not rape, etc.

@Holstein: If they legalize it... the government will.

Exactly!
 8)

*high fives Dr.Z*
Kid: Oh wow I'm being deflowered by a grown woman!
Mother: By the way I'm your mother
Kid: OH GOD NO

EDIT: That's where it becomes rape if you were wondering.

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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2008, 03:38:40 pm »
You kids are being stupid.

You don't seriously think that would work in the real world, do you?

For once, Holstein seems to be the sensible one (even if this thread explains a lot...)

Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2008, 03:39:08 pm »
@Holstein: If they(the government) legalize it... the government will.

what the ****  ??? ??? ???

Offline /lurk

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2008, 03:39:52 pm »
Honestly I don't really care what happens in Florida. I'm more concerned about how the government in the U.K. keep paying for studies into this and then completely ignoring the results. A recent example from the Scottish government shows what I mean.

Holstein is, as usual, right about most of this, but we all need to reconsider our drugs policy to make it fit the real world. What we've got now isn't getting anywhere.
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2008, 03:42:36 pm »
Well, the government owns marijuana farms, but so can private businesses. We allow the sale of alcohol, so why not let people grow hemp crops? Not only can the leaves get people high, but the rest of the plant has uses too. You'd be surprised the things it can be used for (Paper, rope, clothing, seeds can be used to make oils for various things, etc). It's a versatile crop.

As for it making people more powerful, it'll make gangs less powerful and restore legitimate business to the world. Works for me.


Daxx, what're you talking about? Alcohol is a prime example. It's a legal substance, it's easily abused, it can addict people and destroy their lives, just like any other substance. When it was banned, it became a booming industry controlled by gangs, violence thrived, and many people got sick or killed by unsafe alcohol. All banning a substance does is drive those that use it into a black market and black markets are only regulated by violence.

I know people will abuse substances, but they do anyway, and you don't have a right to stop them. It's their body and their choice. We can't start forcing people to live by our standards of health or we start taking away their freedom of choice. At least legalizing it ensures it's cleaner, safer, and takes power from gangs.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2008, 03:44:21 pm »
I don't give a crap about the practicalities of alcohol or marijuana legislation, because that's not what I'm addressing at all. Leave off with the goddamn straw men already, it's sickening enough in the other threads. You are suggesting that everything should be legal and free, and I am saying that is a goddamn stupid idea. That is all.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2008, 03:49:49 pm »
In terms of people using them, like alcohol, marijuana, tobacco, LSD, ecstasy... Yeah. I think they should. Why shouldn't they? If you ban them, you're claiming moral authority and becoming condescending, stating "I know how you should live your life better than you". Do you honestly think bans work? People use drugs every day, and heroin has become many times cheaper today than it was when it was first banned. All banning drugs has done is create a multi-million dollar crime syndicate that leaves many people sick from poor quality drugs or dead from violence and disease.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2008, 03:50:26 pm »
Where does the freedom to do anything to yourself end?

Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2008, 03:51:27 pm »
Well, the government owns marijuana farms, but so can private businesses.

the vast majority of marijuana farms are controlled by drug cartels, not the government or legitimate businesses

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2008, 03:53:18 pm »
Where another person's rights begin. I can do anything I want to myself and my property until it impacts you. To use the old phrase, "my right to swing my fist ends where your face begins". If I want to poison myself, it's fine, so long as it's not on your property, with your money, or your poison.

So, Holstein? Force them to be legitimate. Have them be forced to pass health inspections before they can sell it in stores. You get a lot more money selling product by a brand name in stores with reliability than selling it on the streets. Otherwise, why would people have gone back to selling alcohol in stores after prohibition ended? At least this way, they're obeying the law and are criminals no more.
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Offline Jagon

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2008, 03:54:21 pm »
less power the govt has over what we do the better. who are they to say whether we can't do things to ourselves?

whats next, a ban on masturbation?


also: id rather have people sitting safely in their homes high off weed rather than getting drunk in some bar and going home to beat their wives. alcohol is a waaay worse drug than marijuana.

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2008, 03:54:36 pm »
Daxx... why should it end? Once it starts affecting other people, it's not really "doing things to yourself" anymore, is it?

Offline Werechicken

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2008, 03:54:57 pm »
Some incredibly dumb arguing here. Mainly from the people who believe legalization is the way forward - It's not. Also the freedoms of a person can go to hell for all I care if it means allowing companies to try and market heroin to the public.

Drug addiction causes an increase in crime, puts a drain on the health service and destroys lives (not just the addicts). The reason many drugs are made illegal is because of the detrimental affect they have on society as a whole. Additionally a drug such as this could also be potentially used as a date rape drug, another reason some substances are made illegal or placed under strict controls.

This would be true even if it were legalized, just look at alcohol. The only reason why alcohol is legal is because it's so firmly embedded in our culture. If alcohol had been discovered a few years ago it would be illegal.

While there are some arguments for making drugs legal (would result in fewer accidental overdoses and might be able to gain some revenue from it) it is immediately countered by the fact that the number of addicts would soar, obviously these companies would be selling these drugs to the general public and therefore would be marketing it at them.

Making the possession of a dug illegal severely limits the number of people who can come into contact with the drug and ensures that the number of addicts remains low, relatively speaking.
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Offline Andrew Ryan

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2008, 03:56:45 pm »
Where does the freedom to do anything to yourself end?

When it begins to affect you short term (1-6 days) physical and mental health aswell as your ability to be a good citizen (by good citizen, I mean not interfering with other citizens in a negative way). I would classify Heroine and meth under affecting your short term physical and mental health.


Edit: Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Damn, this is a fast moving thread!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 03:59:04 pm by Andrew Ryan »
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Offline HolsteinCow

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2008, 03:58:48 pm »
So, Holstein? Force them to be legitimate. Have them be forced to pass health inspections before they can sell it in stores. You get a lot more money selling product by a brand name in stores with reliability than selling it on the streets. Otherwise, why would people have gone back to selling alcohol in stores after prohibition ended? At least this way, they're obeying the law and are criminals no more.

the cartels would probably just create front organizations to sell marijuana to the united states legitimately and use the revenue they gain to power their more illegal enterprises

Offline Jagon

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2008, 03:59:37 pm »
if people are stupid enough to destroy their lives, i say let them

Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2008, 04:01:28 pm »
In addition to Werechicken's very good points, shouldn't we criminalise cigarettes by that logic, since second hand smoke affects me?

Sorry, your black-and-white arguments hold no water. Real public policy relies on judgement calls in grey areas, and even the very dubious claim that we should let people kill themselves if it only affects them has no place in the real world.

Offline Andrew Ryan

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2008, 04:07:38 pm »
if people are stupid enough to destroy their lives, i say let them

Theirs a problem with that logic Jagon. Drugs don't only destroy the users lives but also the lives of those around him. My godfather himself was once a heavy user of meth and coke until he was sent to prison for it and got clean. When he was using drugs however he made everyone else around him misreable and irratable. I must say it isn't all laughs and cheers when a 5ft 7 hit up whiteman that looks like brains have fallen out comes strolling into your living room wearing nothing but underwear and a crack pipe in his hand.
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2008, 04:12:33 pm »
Jagon, I like you too

Some incredibly dumb arguing here. Mainly from the people who believe legalization is the way forward - It's not. Also the freedoms of a person can go to hell for all I care if it means allowing companies to try and market heroin to the public.

So... Your morality trumps people's rights?

Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we all know what's been said here...

Drug addiction causes an increase in crime, puts a drain on the health service and destroys lives (not just the addicts). The reason many drugs are made illegal is because of the detrimental affect they have on society as a whole. Additionally a drug such as this could also be potentially used as a date rape drug, another reason some substances are made illegal or placed under strict controls.

Yeah... But many date rape drugs can be made from things easily bought at your local hardware store. Make date-rape illegal, don't ban the chemical used in it. Otherwise, we would have to ban paint because it is a component in some forms of GHB.

This would be true even if it were legalized, just look at alcohol. The only reason why alcohol is legal is because it's so firmly embedded in our culture. If alcohol had been discovered a few years ago it would be illegal.

Which, naturally, would just lead to more violent crime like in Prohibition eras.

While there are some arguments for making drugs legal (would result in fewer accidental overdoses and might be able to gain some revenue from it) it is immediately countered by the fact that the number of addicts would soar, obviously these companies would be selling these drugs to the general public and therefore would be marketing it at them.

Maybe, maybe not. It's people's choice, though. If people are over 19 and want to smoke, we let them because it's their lungs and their call what they put in them.

Making the possession of a dug illegal severely limits the number of people who can come into contact with the drug and ensures that the number of addicts remains low, relatively speaking.

Again, maybe, maybe not. There are no real numbers to back that up as addicts are underground.

the cartels would probably just create front organizations to sell marijuana to the united states legitimately and use the revenue they gain to power their more illegal enterprises

Which could result in their company being seized and sold to people who abide by the law. Simple fact is, once you make millions legitimately, you don't NEED to make more illegally.

When it begins to affect you short term (1-6 days) physical and mental health aswell as your ability to be a good citizen (by good citizen, I mean not interfering with other citizens in a negative way). I would classify Heroine and meth under affecting your short term physical and mental health.


Edit: Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Damn, this is a fast moving thread!

Which is why you charge people who "affect" other citizens with crimes. That's why we have things like Drunk and Disorderly Conduct being a crime.

And, yes, yes it is.


Theirs a problem with that logic Jagon. Drugs don't only destroy the users lives but also the lives of those around him. My godfather himself was once a heavy user of meth and coke until he was sent to prison for it and got clean. When he was using drugs however he made everyone else around him misreable and irratable. I must say it isn't all laughs and cheers when a 5ft 7 hit up whiteman that looks like brains have fallen out comes strolling into your living room wearing nothing but underwear and a crack pipe in his hand.

So why not kick him out of the house? If you didn't like him having the stuff, kick him out. Fact is, though, if it was his house or the house owner wanted him there, you have no right to stop him.

In addition to Werechicken's very good points, shouldn't we criminalise cigarettes by that logic, since second hand smoke affects me?

Sorry, your black-and-white arguments hold no water. Real public policy relies on judgement calls in grey areas, and even the very dubious claim that we should let people kill themselves if it only affects them has no place in the real world.

Why doesn't it, Daxx? Does your morality override people's right to choose too? If someone wants to sit in a room, jab themselves in the arm, and damage their brain a little and they don't affect you, why stop them? And if they assault you or anyone, they've broken the law and should go to jail. You arrest people for that, not for affecting themselves.

Why shouldn't we let them kill themselves? Their life, their choice... Unless you believe you can choose better and your choices should override theirs.

As for cigarettes, I'd agree to a certain degree but it simply requires regulation, not banning. Still, if you do want to follow that logic, shouldn't we ban cars too?
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2008, 04:15:58 pm »
Exactly, the logic would suggest that. Which is why it's stupid to make black and white statements about that. Which is my entire point. Way to go...

You don't need to moralise to refrain from granting rights. You can do it as part of effective social planning, with the goal of increasing aggregate utility. But of course it's so much easier to characterise anyone opposing you as freedom-hating interfering bastards, isn't it? :P

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2008, 04:23:57 pm »
Exactly, the logic would suggest that. Which is why it's stupid to make black and white statements about that. Which is my entire point. Way to go...

You don't need to moralise to refrain from granting rights. You can do it as part of effective social planning, with the goal of increasing aggregate utility. But of course it's so much easier to characterise anyone opposing you as freedom-hating interfering bastards, isn't it? :P

It's not a granting of rights. Everyone has a right to life and freedom of choice, and with that comes the choice to help or hurt yourself.

Also, please, why should we allow alcohol and cigarettes but not drugs like heroin, marijuana, and so on? Shouldn't we ban all drugs? And force people to eat regulated diets? And exercise regularly?

Sorry, Daxx, but people have to be responsible for their own lives. Society shouldn't be an exercise in trying to be efficient.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2008, 04:28:03 pm »
It's not a granting of rights. Everyone has a right to life and freedom of choice, and with that comes the choice to help or hurt yourself.

Really? And from whence these rights? Self-evidence just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

Also, please, why should we allow alcohol and cigarettes but not drugs like heroin, marijuana, and so on? Shouldn't we ban all drugs? And force people to eat regulated diets? And exercise regularly?

Because reading comprehension seems to fail you, I guess I'll just have to quote myself:

I don't give a crap about the practicalities of alcohol or marijuana legislation, because that's not what I'm addressing at all. Leave off with the goddamn straw men already, it's sickening enough in the other threads. You are suggesting that everything should be legal and free, and I am saying that is a goddamn stupid idea. That is all.

Sorry, Daxx, but people have to be responsible for their own lives. Society shouldn't be an exercise in trying to be efficient.

Ooh, normative statements. Back this one up, please.

Offline Werechicken

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2008, 04:28:48 pm »
Some incredibly dumb arguing here. Mainly from the people who believe legalization is the way forward - It's not. Also the freedoms of a person can go to hell for all I care if it means allowing companies to try and market heroin to the public.
So... Your morality trumps people's rights?
Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we all know what's been said here...
Yes, you're a manipulative argumentative troll who clearly ignores the point. (Too far? - maybe, but crap like that really annoys me)
Does anyone want heroin, cocaine or L.S.D. marketed to the public, especially to vulnerable groups? Because that's what would happen.

Drug addiction causes an increase in crime, puts a drain on the health service and destroys lives (not just the addicts). The reason many drugs are made illegal is because of the detrimental affect they have on society as a whole. Additionally a drug such as this could also be potentially used as a date rape drug, another reason some substances are made illegal or placed under strict controls.
Yeah... But many date rape drugs can be made from things easily bought at your local hardware store. Make date-rape illegal, don't ban the chemical used in it. Otherwise, we would have to ban paint because it is a component in some forms of GHB.
I can make mescaline from easily acquired chemicals, that does not make a case for making possession of it legal, which is the logic you're using.

This would be true even if it were legalized, just look at alcohol. The only reason why alcohol is legal is because it's so firmly embedded in our culture. If alcohol had been discovered a few years ago it would be illegal.
Which, naturally, would just lead to more violent crime like in Prohibition eras.
Prohibition failed because I said, if you'd bothered to remember, that alcohol was too firmly embedded in our culture to even try and remove it. There was hardly anyone who didn't drink alcohol, with illegal drugs this is not the case and should obviously remain so.

While there are some arguments for making drugs legal (would result in fewer accidental overdoses and might be able to gain some revenue from it) it is immediately countered by the fact that the number of addicts would soar, obviously these companies would be selling these drugs to the general public and therefore would be marketing it at them.
Maybe, maybe not. It's people's choice, though. If people are over 19 and want to smoke, we let them because it's their lungs and their call what they put in them.
And when they turn to crime to feed their habit and the hospitals are inundated with addicts suffering from the countless side-effects of these drugs what then?

Making the possession of a dug illegal severely limits the number of people who can come into contact with the drug and ensures that the number of addicts remains low, relatively speaking.
Again, maybe, maybe not. There are no real numbers to back that up as addicts are underground.
I think I'll trust official figures over some random musings. The fact is that in most developed countries drug addiction is blessedly low. The fact it is much higher within the poorer areas of society should say something about how the kind of scum who sell this stuff prey on those who are vulnerable. Do we really want to let them get away with it?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 04:34:03 pm by Werechicken »
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2008, 05:00:36 pm »
Really? And from whence these rights? Self-evidence just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

From the easiest foundation of any legal system: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

-Quote-

Problem is, the two are linked. You can't address one drug without addressing them all. You can't ban one for being a brain damaging, mind altering, endangering substance and not ban another simply because it's more culturally acceptable. (Edit: I know that wasn't your argument but still...)

Ooh, normative statements. Back this one up, please.

.... Back it up with what? That humans should allowed to pursue their happiness? There's not exactly a statistical reason that humans should be allowed to control their own life.

Yes, you're a manipulative argumentative troll who clearly ignores the point. (Too far? - maybe, but crap like that really annoys me)
Does anyone want heroin, cocaine or L.S.D. marketed to the public, especially to vulnerable groups? Because that's what would happen.

"I don't like it so it can't be done! Lots of people agree with me!" That's what your argument sounds like to me... Fact is, we have people marketing high sugar drinks that can lead to childhood obesity and diabetes and some people don't like that. Should we ban Coke (The drink), Pepsi, and Sprite?

I can make mescaline from easily acquired chemicals, that does not make a case for making possession of it legal, which is the logic you're using.

The problem is, all drugs can be used to addict people, to harm people... Why not ban sleeping pills that can have similar effects?

Prohibition failed because I said, if you'd bothered to remember, that alcohol was too firmly embedded in our culture to even try and remove it. There was hardly anyone who didn't drink alcohol, with illegal drugs this is not the case and should obviously remain so.

So cultural acceptance makes it okay? But there's a huge marijuana culture growing now, should we allow it? Culture shouldn't override morality...

And when they turn to crime to feed their habit and the hospitals are inundated with addicts suffering from the countless side-effects of these drugs what then?

They pay for their hospitalization, get arrested for their crimes... I'd have thought that was obvious.

I think I'll trust official figures over some random musings. The fact is that in most developed countries drug addiction is blessedly low. The fact it is much higher within the poorer areas of society should say something about how the kind of scum who sell this stuff prey on those who are vulnerable. Do we really want to let them get away with it?

Is it? Please, find me statistics. As for them getting away with it, you said alcohol is okay to not ban simply because you can't stop it. Well, if you know they'll predate on the poor, your logic would seem to indicate that you should just let them. I disagree but your logic seems to say so. I think people should make it cleaner, safer, and less dangerous, and you can't do that with it being a black market.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 05:03:48 pm by Axelgear »
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Offline HanianKnight

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2008, 08:56:51 pm »
I don't really think it should be banned, its effects seem pretty short-term. 5-10 minutes sounds good, and(from what I got from the wikipedia page) there doesn't seem to be any major long-term effects. If you have a sober "sitter" then I don't think it would coause much trouble.
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Offline Brandonazz

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2008, 09:58:07 pm »
Sorry, your black-and-white arguments hold no water. Real public policy relies on judgement calls in grey areas, and even the very dubious claim that we should let people kill themselves if it only affects them has no place in the real world.
Exactly, the logic would suggest that. Which is why it's stupid to make black and white statements about that. Which is my entire point. Way to go...
Problem is, the two are linked. You can't address one drug without addressing them all. You can't ban one for being a brain damaging, mind altering, endangering substance and not ban another simply because it's more culturally acceptable.

QED. Stop it with the black and white logic Axel.

Quote
(Edit: I know that wasn't your argument but still...)

I can't find a quote right now, but suffice it to say that it would be one of the many pointing out how you ignore what the other person actually says. Stop playing tennis and start debating.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 09:59:41 pm by Brandonazz »

Offline Cobra

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2008, 10:13:36 pm »
Have i got it right in stating Axel seems to take any concept to it's logical exteme. If so then really all his ideas are doomed to fail Freedom might be good but you can actually have too much of a good thing.

Offline Inkling

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2008, 10:30:09 pm »
Oh, this thread amuses me.  I'm really just commenting so this will show up under the new replies section.  I'm too tired to contribute much, but Axel and others, you need to go look at what drugs like meth and heroin actually do to people and those around them.  You also need to drop the black and white, all or nothing mentality, but that has been said by many others more eloquently than I can muster at this hour.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2008, 01:51:43 am »
Really? And from whence these rights? Self-evidence just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

From the easiest foundation of any legal system: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Please explain to me how in any way that holds water from a logical perspective. How does "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as a philosophical tenet logically necessarily and sufficiently lead to the rights to life and freedom of choice? You either have no understanding of what I'm asking you to justify, or you can't do it.

-Quote-

Problem is, the two are linked. You can't address one drug without addressing them all. You can't ban one for being a brain damaging, mind altering, endangering substance and not ban another simply because it's more culturally acceptable. (Edit: I know that wasn't your argument but still...)

I'm going to keep quoting this until you at some point decide to actually read it.

I don't give a crap about the practicalities of alcohol or marijuana legislation, because that's not what I'm addressing at all. Leave off with the goddamn straw men already, it's sickening enough in the other threads. You are suggesting that everything should be legal and free, and I am saying that is a goddamn stupid idea. That is all.

Ooh, normative statements. Back this one up, please.

.... Back it up with what? That humans should allowed to pursue their happiness? There's not exactly a statistical reason that humans should be allowed to control their own life.

Back up your normative statement that welfare maximisation shouldn't be a goal in social planning.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2008, 03:43:57 am »
Oh, this thread amuses me.  I'm really just commenting so this will show up under the new replies section.  I'm too tired to contribute much, but Axel and others, you need to go look at what drugs like meth and heroin actually do to people and those around them.  You also need to drop the black and white, all or nothing mentality, but that has been said by many others more eloquently than I can muster at this hour.

See, the thing is, I KNOW what they do. I've seen the pictures, watched the videos, and seen lives ruined by drugs. I've also seen lives ruined because they've been driven underground. It's a horrible thing. I've seen people suffer from alcohol abuse and so on.

It was still their choice to take the drug in the first place.

The logic is black and white here because it involves the restriction of personal freedoms due to societal beliefs, socialist goals, or some similar ideals. Once you do this, you have entered the dark state where you can change the law "for people's own good" and that is a dark path to walk.

What's to stop people from banning fatty foods? (And some have tried and succeeded to various degrees in places) There are people who want to ban cupcakes from school birthday parties. Well, their goal might be well and good but all it is going to do is take away one happy memory from these children's childhood and take away their parent's choice of what to feed them.

You might be willing to give up your choices and freedoms to other people, but I'm not. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't even touch coffee. These are my choices. If people want to ruin their lives with other drugs, that's their choice. At the very least stop things like meth addicts cooking highly toxic stews in someone's basement and poisoning themselves further.

Please explain to me how in any way that holds water from a logical perspective. How does "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as a philosophical tenet logically necessarily and sufficiently lead to the rights to life and freedom of choice? You either have no understanding of what I'm asking you to justify, or you can't do it.

Very simply. You do not try and kill me, I won't try and kill you. Same with rape, murder, arson, theft, etc. Modern law is based on protecting people from each other. It's only too recently that things like protecting people from the real world or protecting people from themselves have come into play (I.E. Seat belt laws).

I'm going to keep quoting this until you at some point decide to actually read it.

And I'm going to keep saying what I've said before, Daxx. You might not care, but you have to. You can't address the restriction of one substance without addressing others of the same kind. I'd love to see you say something about why we can ban one and not the other. Or would you like to ignore my point?

Back up your normative statement that welfare maximisation shouldn't be a goal in social planning.

Well, aside from the term being too broad, the simple answer is that while it should be a consideration, you shouldn't baby people. I'm all for the government sprucing up a public park, make people happy that way. Treating people like babies and saying "We don't trust you to make the right decisions" is pathetic. They're grown adults. If they choose to ruin their lives, then they can. Make outreach programs, teach kids the dangers of drugs, they're not stupid. It doesn't mean you treat them like they shouldn't have control over THEIR life.

QED. Stop it with the black and white logic Axel.

What exactly has been demonstrated, Brandon? The fact is, you have to justify what your point is. If we wish to address the issue of car emissions and say "We will only be applying these measures to Fords" and then not stating any reason for it, you can imagine people starting to question it.

I can't find a quote right now, but suffice it to say that it would be one of the many pointing out how you ignore what the other person actually says. Stop playing tennis and start debating.

.... What have I ignored? It's Daxx who is ignoring things, I have asked him why he can suggest a ban on one thing and then so blatantly ignore others, especially things like alcohol, which more people kill under the influence of than any other drug.

A blog that, currently, has some interesting statistics on drunk driving

Why is it okay to ban these things and not alcohol? When Daxx says that it is okay to ban alcohol, I'll drop this point.

Have i got it right in stating Axel seems to take any concept to it's logical exteme. If so then really all his ideas are doomed to fail Freedom might be good but you can actually have too much of a good thing.

It's not an extreme to think people shouldn't be treated like children. Being gay used to be illegal because people believed it was a corrupting, addicting thing and totally immoral, but it was made legal because it was wrong to take away that choice from people and wrong to send them to jail for committing an act that ultimately harmed no-one but those who gave consent to doing so.

It's wrong to lock people away or take away their choices simply because they might hurt themselves doing so. Otherwise, there is no end to the things we could ban. It's this sort of high-and-mighty moralizing "I know better than you" attitude that led to Prohibition, the illegality of prostitution, and the illegality of homosexuality in the first place. We all know the kind of suffering that has come from each of these things....
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Offline Werechicken

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2008, 03:51:54 am »
Wrong being gay was considered illegal because it was considered immoral.
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2008, 03:57:12 am »
Immoral, harmful to the self, and corrupting. People believed being gay was an addiction that could be passed on. Some still believe it to be so. Ironically, drugs were not illegal back then, though.
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Offline Werechicken

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2008, 05:25:52 am »
lol, I can't be bothered arguing anymore with someone who would probably argue that genocide is a good thing and who is incapable of distinguishing even slight subtleties.

Although I'll leave you with this in passing according to the bible being gay is wrong, ultimately that is why it is immoral and was illegal. Now I'm sure you're going to argue that or nit-pick over some fine points, well go ahead and knock yourself out.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2008, 05:43:32 am »
Please explain to me how in any way that holds water from a logical perspective. How does "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as a philosophical tenet logically necessarily and sufficiently lead to the rights to life and freedom of choice? You either have no understanding of what I'm asking you to justify, or you can't do it.

Very simply. You do not try and kill me, I won't try and kill you. Same with rape, murder, arson, theft, etc. Modern law is based on protecting people from each other. It's only too recently that things like protecting people from the real world or protecting people from themselves have come into play (I.E. Seat belt laws).

This does not demonstrate in terms of necessity or sufficiency from whence these rights. Please answer the question I asked.

I'm going to keep quoting this until you at some point decide to actually read it.

And I'm going to keep saying what I've said before, Daxx. You might not care, but you have to. You can't address the restriction of one substance without addressing others of the same kind. I'd love to see you say something about why we can ban one and not the other. Or would you like to ignore my point?

I'm not addressing any substance, nor do I have to. I'm simply repudiating your flawed argument, not making one myself. Come back and address my actual arguments once you have learnt to read them, rather than constructing pathetically obvious strawmen.

You seem to be singularly intent in completely misunderstanding or ignoring pretty much everything anyone is saying to you. I'm not sure why I'm still extending you the same courtesy.

Back up your normative statement that welfare maximisation shouldn't be a goal in social planning.

Well, aside from the term being too broad, the simple answer is that while it should be a consideration, you shouldn't baby people. I'm all for the government sprucing up a public park, make people happy that way. Treating people like babies and saying "We don't trust you to make the right decisions" is pathetic. They're grown adults. If they choose to ruin their lives, then they can. Make outreach programs, teach kids the dangers of drugs, they're not stupid. It doesn't mean you treat them like they shouldn't have control over THEIR life.

Why does this mean that welfare maximisation shouldn't be a goal in social planning?

I'm going to keep asking the same questions until I get a straight answer, even if it may prove to be like getting blood from a stone.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2008, 05:49:06 am »
lol, I can't be bothered arguing anymore with someone who would probably argue that genocide is a good thing and who is incapable of distinguishing even slight subtleties.

.... Riiiight, and wherever did you get the suggestion I would argue that genocide was a good thing? As for distinguishing subtleties, what is there to be subtle about?

Although I'll leave you with this in passing according to the bible being gay is wrong, ultimately that is why it is immoral and was illegal. Now I'm sure you're going to argue that or nit-pick over some fine points, well go ahead and knock yourself out.

Actually, I won't argue. A lot of people's interpretation says all gay people are bad (Though nowadays people are starting to accept the Jewish idea that it's only referring to Temple Prostitutes), and that resulted in it becoming a crime, despite it being between consenting adults. It was wrong to make being gay illegal, as it is to make any contract that violates no-one else's rights set between two consenting adults. Drugs, prostitution, gambling... None of these should be illegal. Regulated, perhaps, but not illegal.


On to Daxx... Daxx, what is your point, exactly? You say we should ban drugs. Please, answer why we should do that.

As for rights, they're a part of just being human. They are the boundaries which should not be crossed.

Why does this mean that welfare maximisation shouldn't be a goal in social planning?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be. I'm just saying that it shouldn't come at the cost of rights. As I said, set up rehab programs, teach kids about it, that sort of thing. It doesn't mean you can make something illegal because that just makes things worse. Besides, it's wrong to begin with. Why can't a consenting adult shoot their veins full of drugs if it makes them happy? Their money, their life... Why not?
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2008, 06:18:01 am »
On to Daxx... Daxx, what is your point, exactly? You say we should ban drugs. Please, answer why we should do that.

Please quote me saying exactly that. I'm sick and tired of your pathetic attempts to alter the focus of this discussion away from your poorly-thought out ideas and invent straw men, and I'm calling you out on this one.

How about you answer my question about where rights come from? Since you apparently can't, I think we can safely suggest that those parts of your argument (which is the entirety of it, apparently) based upon it are wrong.

Why does this mean that welfare maximisation shouldn't be a goal in social planning?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be. I'm just saying that it shouldn't come at the cost of rights. As I said, set up rehab programs, teach kids about it, that sort of thing. It doesn't mean you can make something illegal because that just makes things worse. Besides, it's wrong to begin with. Why can't a consenting adult shoot their veins full of drugs if it makes them happy? Their money, their life... Why not?

If you're compromising the maximisation problem for some nebulously-derived and poorly-justified principles which are exogenous to the issue, then you are not maximising social welfare. You're not even pretending to make sensible policy decisions at this point, you're just taking a concept as given and then trying to affirm that antecedent, which doesn't logically follow if you've failed to demonstrated that the antecedent is true.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2008, 06:27:14 am »
Please quote me saying exactly that. I'm sick and tired of your pathetic attempts to alter the focus of this discussion away from your poorly-thought out ideas, and I'm calling you out on this one.

When I asked if it was okay to legalize things, your answer was...

Okay, so legalise crack and heroin then. ::) The same argument applies.

Unless I'm misreading sarcasm there, Daxx, it would sound like you're in favour of a ban on them. You did say, though, to your credit that you don't know enough about Salvia to make a ban.

How about you answer my question about where rights come from? Since you are apparently can't, I think we can safely suggest that those parts of your argument (which is the entirety of it, apparently) based upon it are wrong.

It's a part of human rights, Daxx. If rights only stem from governments granting them, then any discussion of morality is a crock.

If you're compromising the maximisation problem for some nebulously-derived and poorly-justified principles which are exogenous to the issue, then you are not maximising social welfare. You're not even pretending to make sensible policy decisions at this point, you're just taking a concept as given and then trying to affirm that antecedent, which doesn't logically follow if you've failed to demonstrated that the antecedent is true.

Actually, I am arguing for something central to enhancing the human condition: The support of basic human rights. Still, if you would argue that these rights don't exist then we must start all over on what basic human rights do exist, if they exist at all. There is, in my mind, no way to prove human rights exist, they're a construct of the human mind themselves, so ultimately this then becomes philosophical.


Still, if you want to argue from a purely logical point of view with human rights not being a consideration, the simplest answer is crime. Making substances illegal has made them cheaper and more dangerous, and that is something rather easily backed up.

Here's a fun little statement on whether or not drugs should be illegal

Personally, I love Libertarianism.  ;D

Edit: Here's a more English one for you too
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 06:29:06 am by Axelgear »
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2008, 06:48:31 am »
Please quote me saying exactly that. I'm sick and tired of your pathetic attempts to alter the focus of this discussion away from your poorly-thought out ideas, and I'm calling you out on this one.

When I asked if it was okay to legalize things, your answer was...

Okay, so legalise crack and heroin then. ::) The same argument applies.

Unless I'm misreading sarcasm there, Daxx, it would sound like you're in favour of a ban on them. You did say, though, to your credit that you don't know enough about Salvia to make a ban.

It's not my fault that you misinterpret an informal reductio ad absurdum demonstration of an argument's failings as a positive statement.

How about you answer my question about where rights come from? Since you are apparently can't, I think we can safely suggest that those parts of your argument (which is the entirety of it, apparently) based upon it are wrong.

It's a part of human rights, Daxx. If rights only stem from governments granting them, then any discussion of morality is a crock.

You continue to refuse to demonstrate from whence these rights are derived. I can wait all day.

Of course, if you stand by your statement that that "There is, in my mind, no way to prove human rights exist", then we can disregard any argument based upon their existence, and therefore we arrive at the conclusion that your original argument that people should have inviolable personal freedoms and that therefore social planners cannot ever justifiably violate them lacks backing and can be disregarded.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2008, 06:54:30 am »
It's not my fault that you misinterpret an informal reductio ad absurdum demonstration of an argument's failings as a positive statement.

For that, I apologize. If you aren't in favour of drug bans, I have no reason to argue with you.

You continue to refuse to demonstrate from whence these rights are derived. I can wait all day.

Of course, if you stand by your statement that that "There is, in my mind, no way to prove human rights exist", then we can disregard any argument based upon their existence, and therefore we arrive at the conclusion that your original argument that people should have inviolable personal freedoms and that therefore social planners cannot ever justifiably violate them lacks backing and can be disregarded.

Pretty much. I'd disagree but the best thing I can come up with is an argument to consequences or an argument based on morals (Like "It's wrong to treat adults like children").

The point of establishing human rights, though, is undeniable, and I think Ayn Rand got it right on that one. Take away a person's right to control their life and only bad things can ensue. If you disagree that a person has a right to do with their life as they see fit, neither of us has a logical basis for or against that point beyond an argument to consequences or an argument of morality.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2008, 07:13:41 am »
Except that discarding a positive hypothesis requires different levels of "lack of proof" to discarding the null hypothesis. If I were to suggest that rights are not philosophically exogenous and are merely socially derived practices I do not need to prove anything beyond dismissing arguments that suggest rights are exogenous, since I am not technically asserting anything other than that those arguments have failed to demonstrate the opposite. It is logically impossible to prove a null hypothesis, and demands for proof are irrelevant since you don't need to prove that God, or rights, or a flying spaghetti monster, or flying teapots, for example do not exist. Their non-existence is merely the default position of the scientific method.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2008, 08:17:32 am »
The problem with rights is that they are a social thing but if they do not exist then suddenly ritual murder like human sacrifice, honor killings, etc. all suddenly become acceptable practice. To some people, these things might be acceptable, but they just aren't unless the person gives their consent. Human rights are a grounding on which we base things but it, like good, evil, and other things of that nature, are philosophical.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2008, 08:27:07 am »
they do not exist then suddenly ritual murder like human sacrifice, honor killings, etc. all suddenly become acceptable practice.

How exactly does ritual murder become "acceptable" once we recognise that people don't have intrinsic rights? For that matter, how are you making the value judgement of acceptable or not acceptable? What does that value judgement actually mean - do you mean good, or allowed in practice? This entire argument is akin to "since we proved there is no God, people cannot now act morally and any act is ethically justifiable". This is the logical fallacy of denying the antecedent poking its head up again.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2008, 08:29:44 am »
Essentially, it's acceptable because there is no basis to stop a culture from doing so. We might consider it barbaric, cruel, etc. but we have no cause, no claim, no right to interfere with them if they're not doing anything wrong. Sure, they might be breaking your laws, but they're not a part of your society and therefore you can't stop them.

Edit: It's a stepping stone to moral relativism, I suppose is a way to shorten that.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 08:32:21 am by Axelgear »
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2008, 08:32:49 am »
Essentially, it's acceptable because there is no basis to stop a culture from doing so. We might consider it barbaric, cruel, etc. but we have no cause, no claim, no right to interfere with them if they're not doing anything wrong. Sure, they might be breaking your laws, but they're not a part of your society and therefore you can't stop them.

You're conflating moral grounding with logical basis again (again, the "atheists can't have morals" argument). What you're making is an appeal to emotion, trying to equate lack of intrinsic rights with a lawless society. Don't bother, it's too transparent.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2008, 08:38:07 am »
I wouldn't say lawless, just unjust. Military juntas are the prime example; a military force comes to power and strips the people of their rights and freedoms. There is no logical basis against this, they could improve the quality of the country, simply a moral one.

Edit: Just to get this back on track...

Speaking from a perspective of human rights, the ban doesn't make sense to me. Speaking from a perspective of logic...

Well, the links I provided show drugs are cheaper now than when the ban began. So trying to get rid of drugs doesn't really work as it has made them far less expensive to get.

There is a black market for drugs. This is undeniable. Black markets do not have a legal system and so abide by the rule of violence. There are countless people killed, lives ruined, and officers corrupted by the world of organized crime. Hence, we know banning drugs has led to an increase in crime. Men like Frank Lucas and Pablo Escobar are proof of this, the latter having engaged a small scale civil war.

Drug use is a choice, just as suicide is. By banning it, we're taking away people's choices, ostensibly for their own good. Such laws have dangerous consequences, though, as even now there are attempts to ban various soft drinks, trans-fats, and so on, from the public. It's a slippery slope and can lead to incredible over-regulation that will only hurt people, not help them.

Drugs are dangerous, and abuse of them can turn people into a criminal and have serious health effects. However, the solutions to these are obvious: Send them to jail and force them to get clean and don't let them get medicare for problems arising from drug use unless they pay for it themselves. They made the choice, they did it to themselves, and hence they must suffer the consequences.

The underworld that drugs have created is dangerous. It's impossible to regulate brands, ensure purity, stave off diseases and crime... By forcing drugs underground, it has forced a criminal element to overtake what could be, and once was, legitimate business practices, making them dirty and unsafe.

That's some arguments for my side.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 10:22:44 am by Axelgear »
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Offline MetallicDragon

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2008, 01:10:24 pm »
You keep saying that people should do to their own bodies whatever they want as long as they don't affect you. Even if they destroy their lives and just become a bum, then they won't really affect you, right? Except that now instead of contributing to society economically they are now a drain on society, using more resources than they are contributing. If too many people become like this, then the economy won't be able to support them and the country would fall into a depression that EVERYONE would feel. Everyone has the right to do to themselves what they will, this is true, but this right it limited by everyone else's right to live in an economically safe country.

You admit people will ruin their own lives and that is their own choice, but how many people start drugs fully realizing how addictive and damaging they can be? I'm not an expert on drugs or anything, but from what I've observed heroin and crack, etc, are so addictive that even one use can lead to addiction, while alchohol can be safely consumed with minimal lasting effects unless consumed in large amounts.

Also you can't just arrest every drug addict who commits a crime; there's a limited police force and limited prisons. Yes, banning the substance can also cause crime but it's kind of a weak reason not to ban something by saying they'll just get it anyway.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2008, 05:15:07 pm »
So take away things from them. Remove them from public welfare. That way, no tax money goes towards them and only private charities can help them. That way, no-one feels an economic impact that they don't have to.

In terms of people using them, that's why you educate people on them. Any drug will cause a mild addictive effect when used. It usually takes three or more uses over a short period of time (Say once a day) to form any sort of dependency. Still, it is their choice. Make the information available and if they take it anyway, it's their own life. If need be, make the law that any substance sold has a warning label or pamphlets given out in stores, the same way they have labels on cigarettes to that effect.

They'll not just get it, it's made cheaper and also more dangerous. As for a limited police force and prisons, yes, this might be so, but that same argument applies to banning it. Personally, I think prisoners can be used for hard labour and you can force prisoners to stay until they can break their addiction. That way, the cost is minimalized, they get cleaned up, and everyone is happy.
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Offline Cobra

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2008, 08:08:46 pm »
Now the junkies have no source of income. This can end well as an increasing number of people are turning to crime to support this habit. I can't wait until I'm beaten half to death because I walked in on 2 drug addicts trying to make off with my TV.

Offline MetallicDragon

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2008, 08:18:39 pm »
Just shoot them with your legally bought gun which you were carrying around with you!

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2008, 08:20:21 pm »
Right. Avoiding statements related to the gun control debate... (And, would you believe I was saying this before you responded, MD? This thread moves fast even when it's past peak posting time)

Drug users today don't always turn to theft. It's not impossible for them to support their habit. If they do, though, send them to jail and put them to hard labour and get them clean, bar them from using the stuff. Or put them in the military, where not only can they not get it, repay their debt to society, and provide a valuable service, but they might also find meaningful duty and structure on which to base their life.
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Offline Cobra

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2008, 08:44:00 pm »
and we are back to the "Not enough police on the streets" to clean up every home invading hoodlem. Even if I had a gun just because my efforts in GTA 4 mean I was able to clear out a whole crack den don't mean I can easily stop 2 guys. 2 guns on my 1 does not make for a happy ending for me.

Losing my right to living a safe life is not a good price to pay for the right to dump what ever I want into my body.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2008, 09:07:53 pm »
Again, I'm trying to avoid issues best left for the gun control thread but you're not making it easy. Your right to security is only secured so far as stopping people from committing crimes and trying to prevent it.

Still, though, that argument is incredibly flawed. Just because a substance is available doesn't mean it'll lead to more crime related to it. In fact, when drugs were made illegal, it was this that caused crime rates to increase. Crime rates have made drugs more available, created a dark subculture, and generally hurt people.
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Offline HanianKnight

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2008, 09:33:32 pm »
So take away things from them. Remove them from public welfare. That way, no tax money goes towards them and only private charities can help them. That way, no-one feels an economic impact that they don't have to.

In terms of people using them, that's why you educate people on them. Any drug will cause a mild addictive effect when used. It usually takes three or more uses over a short period of time (Say once a day) to form any sort of dependency. Still, it is their choice. Make the information available and if they take it anyway, it's their own life. If need be, make the law that any substance sold has a warning label or pamphlets given out in stores, the same way they have labels on cigarettes to that effect.

They'll not just get it, it's made cheaper and also more dangerous. As for a limited police force and prisons, yes, this might be so, but that same argument applies to banning it. Personally, I think prisoners can be used for hard labour and you can force prisoners to stay until they can break their addiction. That way, the cost is minimalized, they get cleaned up, and everyone is happy.


There are a couple of things in that statement I would like to contest. In the first paragraph you said we would take the drug-users off of public welfare and leave them to private charities. Do you honestly think that private charities would be able to handle the influx of a huge amount of drug-users? They wouldn't only require food and money, but the needed therapy and work to actually try to clean them up. Private charities are already often over-stretched, I think that would just break the entire system. Especially considering the amount of man-hours it would take for the aforementioned therapy. Private charities aren't an invincible force of pure good that could solve any problem thrown at them. They do a lot of good, and I respect the people that work for them. I also understand that government welfare is an incredibly complex issue that I surly don't have a working understanding of, but throwing that many people out in such a vulnerable position to whatever fate befalls them seems a bit cruel. I understand that your not a big government type, but the government can do good for the people that it represents.

As for educating people about drugs, we already do that. Health class is nothing but one multi-year rambling speech about why drugs are bad(and sex by the way :P ). I guess there could be a more aggressive and comprehensive education plan for drugs, but it really hasn't seemed to work so far. I guess thats it.
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #83 on: June 17, 2008, 09:45:00 pm »
Just how many drug users do you think there would be? Just because a person uses drugs doesn't mean they'll become instantly destitute. Again, though, if people on drugs suffer, it's not my concern. Their pain and hurt is their own choice, and I will do all I can to alleviate only and if they will try and get off of it. Help those who help themselves, y'know?

As for health classes, doesn't them not working seem to indicate something? People know the risks, know the dangers, and do it anyway. I would rather we reduce the risk and danger to reduce suffering and hardship, but it is their choice to do it. If druggies die cold, alone, and shivering from hunger in an alley, it's a sad result of their own choices... Unless someone else gets them addicted, a favourite tactic of pimps to keep prostitutes. Both these things are illegal, though, which makes getting help very difficult...
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Offline HanianKnight

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #84 on: June 17, 2008, 10:00:07 pm »
Well if drugs were legalized I would think there would be a pretty big jump in the amount of drug-users. More drug-users would probably lead to more destitute(and a dramatic increase in the funniness of the stoner movies). As for their suffering not being your concern, well it would be like taking away part of the support they need to not be suffering. I'm not great with analogies but I'm thinking that it would be like taking away someones crutches and telling them they shouldn't have hurt their legs. Although you're paying in small part for those crutches, it still seems cruel.

Oh and I never really understood the "help those who help themselves" thing. If they can help themselves they they don't need helping, right? Why not help those that can't help themselves?

Also, wouldn't throwing away the government aid result in more crime?If people are addicted to drugs and no one is trying to help them in anyway, I could see that becoming a crime issue for everyone else. I guess I'm more of an idealist than you. ( Not really a good thing on my part)
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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #85 on: June 17, 2008, 10:05:11 pm »
Oh and I never really understood the "help those who help themselves" thing. If they can help themselves they they don't need helping, right? Why not help those that can't help themselves?

The reasoning behind that (though it's discriminating to lazy, do-nothing slobs) is that you want to help a person who can show progress and have a will to improve themselves. Even people who are capable of helping themselves could use some encouragement. Overall, both strong willed and lazy, they will need support.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #86 on: June 17, 2008, 10:19:55 pm »
Everyone needs support but you get nowhere without trying. That's the gist of that idea. Someone who is willing to try and walk with crutches and sticks to the retraining schedule will recover more swiftly than someone who doesn't care. Those in school willing to work and take teacher's advice will inevitably do well, even if they're less intelligent than the people around them, because they took the initiative and were willing to try.

As for drugs and the jump in users, there might be more weekend users, yes, but those aren't people you need to worry about. They're typically responsible in what they do and aren't hardcore addicts. As for the support, welfare can be blocked by their company. If they were fired for drug abuse, they lose welfare.

Lastly, I don't think throwing away the government is a good idea, but I believe that a government shouldn't be used to interfere where no interference is necessary or philosophically acceptable.
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Offline Inkling

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2008, 10:45:50 pm »
It must be a very interesting place inside your mind, Axelgear.  This thread moves rapidly, but I wanted to comment on your ideas of dealing with drug addicts by sending them to hard labor camps or putting them in the military.

First, where do you draw the line for when someone is a drug addict?  Does it differ for each drug?  Does it take into account that the same dose of a drug can have a different effect on two different people?  I thought you were saying if people wanted to rot themselves out with drugs, they had the right to.  Then why does the government have the authority to forcibly clean out certain individuals?

Second, I'm not an expert on the law, especially not at 1:30 in the morning, but I'm nearly positive hard labor camps are illegal.  And prison isn't a rehab center, you aren't sentenced until you get your act together, it's for a set period of time.  Whatever it is you're trying to suggest, it would pretty much turn the judicial system on it's head.  But then, you're probably fine with that.

Third, sentence drug addicts to military service?  That's such a bad idea, I don't know where to start.  Do you really think an army of convicts is a good idea?  Taking taking needy, mentally unstable people and arming and training them with lethal weapons?  That might be a worse idea than for the South to have armed slaves to fight in the Civil War.  The idea of a draft is unpopular enough, how do you think being sentenced to combat would sit with civil rights groups?  Modern combat in urban environments and cleanup and rebuilding after a war is a complicated process.  Do you really want to turn that duty over to people who were deemed either a danger to themselves or unfit for society?  I could go on, but I've probably ranted enough.
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #88 on: June 17, 2008, 11:03:40 pm »
It must be a very interesting place inside your mind, Axelgear.  This thread moves rapidly, but I wanted to comment on your ideas of dealing with drug addicts by sending them to hard labor camps or putting them in the military.

Not drug addicts, criminals. We see drug addicts every day in the form of smokers and they can moderate their habit simply, the same with alcohol. Criminals of non-violent crimes, however, can find purpose and work in these things.

First, where do you draw the line for when someone is a drug addict?  Does it differ for each drug?  Does it take into account that the same dose of a drug can have a different effect on two different people?  I thought you were saying if people wanted to rot themselves out with drugs, they had the right to.  Then why does the government have the authority to forcibly clean out certain individuals?

Well, this question is moot, seeing how I said not addicts but criminals. I have nothing against drug addicts.

Second, I'm not an expert on the law, especially not at 1:30 in the morning, but I'm nearly positive hard labor camps are illegal.  And prison isn't a rehab center, you aren't sentenced until you get your act together, it's for a set period of time.  Whatever it is you're trying to suggest, it would pretty much turn the judicial system on it's head.  But then, you're probably fine with that.

Yes, they are. A part of the point of law is rehabilitation and if someone has a mental condition that led to them committing the crime (I.E. Substance dependency, mental deficiency, etc.) they can be judged not guilty by reason of insanity and instead sentenced to receive treatment in some form or another. These sentences ARE until you get your act together. Still, putting criminals to work making license plates, breaking rocks, what have you, is a measure to defray the cost of keeping them in jail.

Third, sentence drug addicts to military service?  That's such a bad idea, I don't know where to start.  Do you really think an army of convicts is a good idea?  Taking taking needy, mentally unstable people and arming and training them with lethal weapons?  That might be a worse idea than for the South to have armed slaves to fight in the Civil War.  The idea of a draft is unpopular enough, how do you think being sentenced to combat would sit with civil rights groups?  Modern combat in urban environments and cleanup and rebuilding after a war is a complicated process.  Do you really want to turn that duty over to people who were deemed either a danger to themselves or unfit for society?  I could go on, but I've probably ranted enough.

Taking needy people who have no money and no structure in their life and giving them these things, turning them around? Seems decent to me. As for the South, they did use armed slaves, and, in fact, used them to hunt escaped slaves at times, to great effect. Still, I'm just making a suggestion on how to defray costs and reform criminals. This has little to do with drug addicts.
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Offline Cobra

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2008, 11:52:54 pm »
Just how many drug users do you think there would be?

Just on this point alone I honestly believe most major drugs such as Marijuana, Extacy, Steriods, possibly even Coke doing business close to that of the tobacco industry if made legal. Also if you can get meth across the counter that will drive it's availablity up and more people will be on the wagon (even if most of us know how dangerous it is) The only limiting factor on how popular a drug would be would be it's perceieved danger.

In many respects Marijuana would probably almost completely repace Tobacco as for smoking why start on tobacco when Marijuana is legal and can get you higher I'm not sure the effects of Nicotine completely but I'm sure they pale compared to THC. Even legel it would still be a gateway to the harder stuff.

In the end we are talking possibly a user base for each drug close to Ciggerettes. With the addiction rates of those drugs compared to casual users as it multiply that out. Society would crumble all the education in the world wont save you.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #90 on: June 18, 2008, 04:47:32 am »
I know how bad meth is. Anyone who went to my school is aware. Marijuana is less addictive and dangerous than cigarettes (It may even have medical benefits like reducing risk of seizure), ecstasy is not typically something someone gets addicted to, steroids are natural substances and are legal typically anyway, and meth is a real life ruiner. If you want, give someone a three day waiting period before they can buy any, even if they've bought it before.

I'd love to see marijuana replace tobacco. Tobacco is "harder" than marijuana in terms of bodily damage, though. I've always wondered why marijuana was banned and tobacco and alcohol weren't....

As for addiction, tobacco users don't seem to have to turn to crime to feed their habit, do they? Some people smoke two packs a day, which amounts to about 20-50 dollars a day, Canadian or America, it doesn't matter which. That's a few marijuana cigarettes, or a hit or two of cocaine and marijuana. And that's a few dozen pills of ecstasy. Only hardcore abusers would need more than that. It's no different from cigarettes.

Society crumbling though, I doubt. These drugs were legal before the "War on Drugs" and society was fine then.
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Offline Serdun

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #91 on: June 18, 2008, 06:19:21 pm »
You are an enigma to me, Axelgear. When you start posting in a thread I often find myself kind of nodding along, agreeing with your posts. I see where you're coming from, John Locke and all that. Then you start talking about legalizing all drugs solely on principle then shipping the addicts off to some gulag in the Arctic Circle and I want to cry. Jesus, libertarianism =/= AYN RAND ARBEIT MACHT FREI BLARG BLARG BLARG. There's certainly room for a happy medium.
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2008, 08:43:21 pm »
.... Ayn Rand wasn't a Nazi. I'm also not suggesting gulags or treating addicts like criminals. Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth... I said criminals can be put to hard labour (Making license plates and such), which isn't exactly too strenuous, to help pay for their living quarters, food, etc. in response to people saying there'd be an increase in prison sentences. I didn't say ALL addicts. Pete's sake, people...

If you want to discuss the merits of Randianism, we can another time.

As for legalizing all drugs, drugs being banned leads to problems, far more than having them being legal does, and when they're legal it's typically far easier to deal with the problems that arise and the money from the drugs goes into legitimate hands and taxes are paid from them instead of going into drug dealer's pockets and becoming a drain on society.
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Offline Didero

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #93 on: June 19, 2008, 01:34:05 am »
As for legalizing all drugs, drugs being banned leads to problems, far more than having them being legal does, and when they're legal it's typically far easier to deal with the problems that arise and the money from the drugs goes into legitimate hands and taxes are paid from them instead of going into drug dealer's pockets and becoming a drain on society.
Here in the Netherlands, some drugs are legalised, sort of. I'm not sure of the exact regulations, and they're a bit vague in itself, but even with the partial legalisation we have here, I still regularly here about the police finding another house where people are illegally growing drugs in their attics. So even legalising it doesn't move it entirely out in the open; there's still a criminal element to it.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #94 on: June 19, 2008, 05:57:53 am »
That doesn't seem so much as it was legalized as they made a smart decision to hunt the dealers, not the users. Problem is, the drugs are still illegal. Until they can be sold in a licensed store and legally grown, there will be trouble.
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Offline Inkling

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #95 on: June 20, 2008, 10:46:14 am »
It sounds like some drugs are legal and can be sold in stores, people just aren't supposed to grow and produce them themeselves.  Kind of like how there is still moonshining in the US.  I might be misinterpreting what Didero said, though.
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Offline Didero

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #96 on: June 20, 2008, 11:13:40 am »
Here's a Wikipedia article that can probably explain it infinitely better than I can.
But basically, nobody is allowed to own more than 5 grams of a soft drug, not even drug stores. Because even the police sees that this is a problem, they don't check whether those stores actually abide by this rule.
So, yeah, Inkling is basically right.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Florida Senate Votes to Criminalize the Diviner's Sage
« Reply #97 on: June 20, 2008, 12:17:30 pm »
More than 5 grams? That's not a lot... So it doesn't sound like stores are selling them or it's really that legal, they just don't care to chase people who aren't a real danger to anyone and instead go after the dealers.
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