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Will Wright's Spore => Spore: General => Topic started by: BobFromReboot on June 22, 2005, 04:18:02 pm

Title: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: BobFromReboot on June 22, 2005, 04:18:02 pm
I was wondering, are the sounds going to be procedurally generated too?

All of the creatures are unique so it would only be appropriate for them to sound unique. I'm not just talking about the screaches either, I also mean the radio chatter you hear.

Another thing that would be good would be if the music was procedural too, but I've never seen something like that before.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Flayum on June 22, 2005, 04:59:36 pm
That would be fantastic! Could this even extend to a language- a modfied verbal tones, like something from The Sims? I don't know how they could program that in time for the release, it sound complex- maybe an expansion ( :P )?
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Sub on June 22, 2005, 05:31:30 pm
Is it even possible to have procedurally generated sounds?
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Sparr on June 22, 2005, 06:09:11 pm
That 'radio chatter' is a common sound effect. The part about Will saying it was an 'alien language' was just mumbo jumbo.

I doubt they'll have procedural sounds. They'll just have a list of voices for you animal that you can use, I bet.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Jaleho on June 22, 2005, 06:32:45 pm
Is it even possible to have procedurally generated sounds?

yes, it's possible to have ANYTHING procedural, it's just a matter of programming it.

For example, there are basic text-to-speech synthesisers that have the computer read a string of text and have the speaker reproduce the sounds according to rules in the computer. Different voices can be created by modifying speed, pitch, accents, noise vs harmony, and so on.

Now, there are simple programs that will create text languages based on a series of rules: no more than two consonants in a row, and every word must contain a vowel. And it will create a bunch of words that look authentic but don't mean anything.

So, mix those two, throwin some randomness to the procedure, and you have a realistic-sounding alien speaker.

Remove the vowels and put in more k,c,x, and t sounds and you have an insect-like speech.

Lower the pitch, extend the length that vowels are pronounced and have them echo, and you have a guttural type of lion or bear sounding language.

Speed up the talking, reverse the speech by flipping the rules on how letters are pronounced and you get what sounds like a Chipmunks record being played backwards...

The possibilities are endless, and it's just a matter of incorporating technology that's already been out there for a while.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Borogove on June 22, 2005, 07:30:35 pm
Is it even possible to have procedurally generated sounds?

Definitely.  In my attempts at coding it, I've mixed slightly modified sine waves, or modified and mixed together some pre-recorded samples, or a combination.  I had a rough time getting it to sound decent, but I bet someone who knew what they were doing wouldn't have as much trouble.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Deep Lee on June 22, 2005, 10:58:31 pm
what they can do is have large 'bank' of real animal sounds, and you get to mix and match them and then they become unique.

That's how they made the dinosaur sounds for the jurassic park movies, they took a lions roar and mixed it with a hawk screech or something like that. So if you took an actual sound of a chipmunk and mixed it with the sound a moose makes, you would have an original sound. So they just need a mixing/editing program put in, I don't think it would be that difficult.

I REALLY HOPE they put something like that in. It's not going to be cool if all the creatures sound similar.
I imagine they'll have like 5 different lizard sounds, 5 different mammal sounds, 5 different bird sounds, and 5 different 'fish' sounds (which maybe just be the other sounds with an 'underwater' gurgle effect.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Jaleho on June 23, 2005, 09:33:15 am
There is procedural music, where the computer looks at a tree and changes the rotation, length, width, position and color of each limb into the pitch, tone, duration, volume, timing and instrument of a musical note - creating a procedural song.

THEN.... take those text-to-speech bits. Save each word or group of words as an individual sample. Using the powers of the Demo's friend, a MOD tracker, take the melody from the procedural song. Apply those recorded alien words/phrases to the notes to play at different pitches and speeds, and you now have...

Procedural singing... A choir of your critters rallying their troops into battle with song or mourning the death of their leader in a vocal dirge.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Oviraptor on June 23, 2005, 12:21:44 pm
I can't think of any way they could do the sounds well, unless they do it procedurally. It seems to me that procedural sounds are a must. My guess is that the music (do they need music?) will be done that way too.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: BobFromReboot on June 23, 2005, 01:47:55 pm
Yeah the music could really give a sense of relaxation. I love the music in the gdc demo.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Pinstar on June 24, 2005, 05:00:23 pm
I hope you will be able to change them though. Nothing worse than
"Hey I just made this REALLY cool creature."
"Kawaaweraakkhhhpppb"
"....that has an annoying call...and it won't shutup... great back to the drawing board"
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Doomsday on June 24, 2005, 11:28:51 pm
I would assume that this would have to be looked at eventually... I mean sure you can look at stock sounds... but that would just bring the overall value of the game down and from everything I've read and heard, it seems that that's the last thing they'd want to be doing. I am assuming they are planning or working in languages of sorts. If you look at the language humans speak, they are all almost interconnected except for four or five. This is because no matter how complex you get... you never really lose the basics and alot of the basics, atleast in speech, are transcultural. English is based off of primarily Latin, Greek, Roman, German, and Anglo-Saxon with words taken from French, Spanish, and ect. You look at say... British English and Chinese... at first they seem to have no similarities at all... but if you take the time to look you can notice that certain patterns get repeated even if the grammar and words are completely different. Language (atleast on earth) follows a particular pattern, save for a few exceptions.

So if you take into account you can have your own procedural sounds and voices then each world could either follow a completely different or a somewhat similar type of sound even the words are completely jumbled and switched. I mean how many languages does the Earth have? It has probably 3 times as many as it currently has countries if not more... if you factor in dialects and the merger of cultures... you have a near infinite amount of possiblities on our planet. So even if you scale it down to it's simplest form for the game, you should atleast have anywhere from ten to fifteen thousand different procedural vocabularies in the galaxy (if you galaxy has that many intelligent species, chances are it'll only have say a thousand or so, so the mix can vary greatly). If you think about the power of the procedural system and the power of modern computers.. it is possible (if we can ever determine the exact or near-exact perimeters) to simulate life and the evolution of life on this planet. All the way from Homo erectus to Homo neandertal (our distant cousin who dropped off the evolutionary chart) and Homo cro-magnon (early human ancestors) to Homo sapien-sapiens (our current species name) and past that.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Oviraptor on June 25, 2005, 06:14:39 am
I mean how many languages does the Earth have?

The number is well ocer a thousand. Papau New Guinea alone has over 750 seperate languages.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Doomsday on June 25, 2005, 08:03:31 am
Quite... I believe the count was at about 1800 or so.. about 2 to 3 thousand if you include dead/dying languages and localized (ie Jungle Tribes) languages.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: s0lidmetal on June 25, 2005, 09:28:02 am
Procedural sound would be horrible.  Like Steve said (I think he said this) people will be complaining that their creatures don't wask the way their supposed to; so what's stopping them from hating Spore because their monster doesn't sound like it's supposed too?  Imagine you create a deadly ninja dragon and it meows like a cat.  It would upset people.  It would be better to have a 2 sets of sounds...For allies and for enemies.  This could also help distinguish between allies.  For example, once you break the language barrier, you will begin to "understand" your allies.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Oviraptor on June 25, 2005, 09:31:31 am
Procedural sound would be horrible. Like Steve said (I think he said this) people will be complaining that their creatures don't wask the way their supposed to; so what's stopping them from hating Spore because their monster doesn't sound like it's supposed too? Imagine you create a deadly ninja dragon and it meows like a cat. It would upset people. It would be better to have a 2 sets of sounds...For allies and for enemies. This could also help distinguish between allies. For example, once you break the language barrier, you will begin to "understand" your allies.

Actually I think procedural sounds would be dealt with similarly to the procedural skin coloring, so there would be player manipulation of the sounds in a procedural format.

In other woeds you can change your sound until you get it the way you like it.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Dake on July 23, 2005, 01:04:21 am
Is it even possible to have procedurally generated sounds?
i think so...say they have oh 50 diff sounds...there could be so many ways to randomly switch the pitch and tone of one of those..so say you pick a beak which is a random 5 diff voices..it picks one..then tweaks it based on whatever..your size  etc. making it oh say, baratone...maybe add, a bit of alien echo to it? or robotic static to the voce? lots of ways to randomize sounds im my opinion..i hope that made sense.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Cobra on July 23, 2005, 01:18:25 am
Seeing the game is about customization I think it shouldnt be randomly choosing from a series of sounds but choosing a from a list your self that way you get the sound you want maybe a sample of how the sound will be procedualy altered so u can know what it sound like and you can have the one you like.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Dake on July 23, 2005, 02:29:30 am
Seeing the game is about customization I think it shouldnt be randomly choosing from a series of sounds but choosing a from a list your self that way you get the sound you want maybe a sample of how the sound will be procedualy altered so u can know what it sound like and you can have the one you like.
i for one am very agreeable with the idea that you can choose a voice and use sliders and such to make you own unique soud.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: ZerGoth on July 23, 2005, 06:50:33 am
Quite... I believe the count was at about 1800 or so.. about 2 to 3 thousand if you include dead/dying languages and localized (ie Jungle Tribes) languages.

Actually, it is near to 6000 all over the world. But still, I think about 50 of them are dying each year, because they aren't spoken anymore.

I'm wondering if creatures in Spore will adopt any kind of language when they near the civilisation stage, or if they will be keeping their noises.

Quote
Procedural sound would be horrible.  Like Steve said (I think he said this) people will be complaining that their creatures don't wask the way their supposed to;

That's the thing with procedural programming: your creations probably won't do what you want. They could walk, or or manipulate objects, or fight, in a complete different way then you wanted.

But I guess you will be able to change the sounds of your creature a little bit, by adjusting some settings.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Golgrig on July 27, 2005, 05:46:49 am
If i can make my creatures sound like  this (http://www.nasa.gov/123163main_cas-skr1-112203.wav) I'd be happy.....mainly i want a creature with a voice to match, a lion with a ROAR! a wolf with a GROWL!
and a Golgrig with a "soul stealing", "spine gripping", Siren!

Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Oviraptor on July 27, 2005, 06:25:18 am
Your link doesn't seem to work... it just says this: "Page not Found The page you have requested might no longer exist or has had its name changed."
 
 
 
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Golgrig on July 27, 2005, 06:43:51 am
nasa doesnt like people linking their site apparently ;D
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Oviraptor on July 27, 2005, 06:59:11 am
Holy cow, that's erie!

Here is a more direct link, (to just the sound): http://www.nasa.gov/123163main_cas-skr1-112203.wav
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Golgrig on July 27, 2005, 07:00:22 am
that was what was there originaly, i've changed it again and again  :-[

thanks ;D, now it works.... originaly coppied the url directly from the Real player properties ??? but it didn't work
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Oviraptor on July 27, 2005, 07:09:20 am
No problem, I just copied it dierctly from the address bar.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: 762 on July 28, 2005, 09:37:00 am
So anyway... Procedural sounds might not be exactly like you want it, but it should take into account the size, mouth, and type of your creature (by type I mean carnivorous, omnivorous... Carnivores should have a mean growl, herbivores a more gentle call). I would be sorely dissappointed if my giant carnivorous gorrilla sounded like a robbin. Don't worry, I'm sure Will has thought of everything. If you can edit space/time, I'm sure your creature won't sound incredibly dumb.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Sparr on July 30, 2005, 08:45:22 pm
I almost certain the game will simply have recorded sounds. The music was most likely recorded, so the sounds most likely will too.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: 762 on July 30, 2005, 08:53:10 pm
I almost certain the game will simply have recorded sounds. The music was most likely recorded, so the sounds most likely will too.

I'm not saying that the sounds will be one hundred percent procedural, but it shouldn't be random sounds. The game should take into account all the things I said in my last post in order to determine which recorded noise to choose. As I said before, a little chipmunk won't growl like a lion, and a giant gorrilla won't sound like a tiny bird. That's what I meant by procedural.

EDIT: This is kind of a bad example, but in The Sims, women spoke in a femnine pre-recorded voice, men in a masculine, and children in a childish. You wouldn't hear a man speaking in a childish voice, nor would you hear a woman in a man's voice. The only difference is that Spore will have to figure out who the "men" are and who the "women" are, and play appropriate pre-recorded sounds for them. Sorry if that doesn't make any sense, it does it my head.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: BobFromReboot on July 31, 2005, 08:18:47 pm
An old game, Ballblazer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballblazer) used algorithmic music and sounds pretty amazing for a game made in 1985. With Spore it could have hundreds of instrument samples that can be trasposed much like Ballblazers and sound a hundread times better.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Leng on August 01, 2005, 05:49:31 pm
I think the best way to do this would be to have special "vocal" organs.  For instance, you're a cricket-man and you turn on your TV to see a cricket-man news anchor reporting the news by making chirping noises with his legs.  You could even have photoluminescence to "pict" your communication.  For sound-based communication, the organ type would determine which base-SFX were used, and you could alter the volume, pitch, and other details by changing size and shape.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: 762 on August 01, 2005, 07:27:03 pm
I think the best way to do this would be to have special "vocal" organs. For instance, you're a cricket-man and you turn on your TV to see a cricket-man news anchor reporting the news by making chirping noises with his legs. You could even have photoluminescence to "pict" your communication. For sound-based communication, the organ type would determine which base-SFX were used, and you could alter the volume, pitch, and other details by changing size and shape.

That's a good idea. There's something I don't like about it, though. I just can't put my finger on it...
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Leng on August 01, 2005, 07:58:09 pm
Is it that sounds from the same organ type would sound too similar?  Well you could have a couple dozen base sound sets for each organ type, naturally.  But you couldn't, for example, have musical instruments made from bones in your head, and have it sound like human speech. 
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: 762 on August 01, 2005, 08:31:10 pm
I don't think that's it. I just realized that it's because I don't want myself to decide what my creature sounds like, for some reason. I want it to be appropriate for my creature, but I don't want to be the one making decisions. That would kind of take the fun out of it for me.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Deep Lee on August 02, 2005, 12:09:12 am
I was thinking it would make sense if they have different REAL Animal sounds (reptile, mammal, bird, etc), that mix together depending on how you build your creature. So if you add Fur, it randomly adds either moose, cat, cow, etc... prerecorded noises. If you add scales it would add a hissing sound or something, feathers=bird sounds, and you would get a pretty unique sound, if they mixed it right, and had A LOT of different creature recordings procedurally being applied to how you make your creature.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Golgrig on August 02, 2005, 12:33:09 am
that's a great idea Deeplee, the choices in how you texture your creature make it both sound and look different.
(http://www.planetspore.co.uk/screengalleries/images7/6.jpg)
just imagine their voices!
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: 762 on August 02, 2005, 08:52:15 am
What about sub- and supersonic calls? Subsonic you could see the in-game ground shake, supersonic you could watch your dog kill itself.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Wrigley on August 07, 2005, 09:51:25 am
I doubt there only going to use earth-animal sounds, especially unmodified (w/out changed pitch, etc...) ones.  Those come from earth creatures. Aliens shouldn't have to sound like your pet gerbel.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: tywintersuk on August 07, 2005, 11:13:58 am
When you build a creature you can either just stick on a generic leg or manipulate it into exactly what you want. I should be the same with voices, procedurally generated by type, size, number of mouths - but with sliders you can manipulate like pitch vowel/constant ratio etc.
I think the music should be recorded with an small amount of choice. Otherwise the game will be too much to program and to play.


p.s I think language should seem to evolve gradually as you go through the stages but be unregognisable  (excuse spelling) except in emotion like simlish.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Deep Lee on August 07, 2005, 12:50:59 pm
Well they have to start with something, I'm all for filtering the sounds and changing pitch and whatnot, a gerbil mixed with a cat slowed down might sound pretty alien... you should be able to alter your voice if you don't like it. Maybe start with something automatically, and have the option to evolve your vocal cords differently or something.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Oviraptor on August 07, 2005, 07:45:50 pm
Well they have to start with something, I'm all for filtering the sounds and changing pitch and whatnot, a gerbil mixed with a cat slowed down might sound pretty alien... you should be able to alter your voice if you don't like it. Maybe start with something automatically, and have the option to evolve your vocal cords differently or something.

The ability to add your own sounds, brilliant!
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: sgore on August 07, 2005, 07:50:36 pm
what if the uploaded sounds end up being uploaded to that server and downloaded to other games too. possibly incorporated into creatures other people make...
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: krjal on August 08, 2005, 07:23:34 am
If procedural sounds are used in any way you should be able to record your own sounds (provided you have a microphone at home ;D) and then adjust them using basic modulation tools. The game could then take a base set of sounds, a few samples that you make, and incorporate them into your creature. Using the procedural effects, first based on the physiology of the creature (does it have a resonance chamber in its head? Does it telekinetically create the atmospheric vibrations?) then based on the mood or action of the creature at the time eg. growling and sharp is angry et cetera.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Leng on August 08, 2005, 02:14:58 pm
Christ, we're worried enough about 10-foot penises, now we have to worry about things that go around saying "f*ck, f*ck, f*ck, f*ck, f*ck" all the time.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on August 08, 2005, 02:52:28 pm
omg i dont no why but picturing that i've laughed the hardest i've ever laughed ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Haddeen Sol on August 08, 2005, 03:14:13 pm
Please, grace us with another intelligent comment followed by a string of smilies. My brain has had a pleasure overload from your dazzlingly clever use of the english[sic] language, and now I must chew my nails in agitation and suspense at what you could possibly say next.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on August 08, 2005, 03:40:02 pm
That.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Deep Lee on August 08, 2005, 04:35:38 pm
I wasn't even thinking of self-made recording... that would be REALLY REALLY cool. "Lemme hear ya say UUHHHH"
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Oviraptor on August 08, 2005, 05:59:20 pm
Not only was that a double post, it was spam. Even if it was supposed to be a sarcastic response, don't do that again.

Spam in small doses is okay, it's when you do it over and over again that it becomes a problem.

I wasn't even thinking of self-made recording... that would be REALLY REALLY cool. "Lemme hear ya say UUHHHH"

Don't you love it when you inadvertingly come up with something revolutionary?  Good thing I misread your post. ;)
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: Deep Lee on August 08, 2005, 11:44:09 pm
yes. very good indeed.

no need for hatin' folks, let's keep it debatable.
and the less posting of nonsense the better.
thx for removing the smilefest.
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on August 09, 2005, 06:02:14 am
 :-[ :( :'(
Title: Re: Procedural Sounds?
Post by: CosmicD on March 18, 2006, 06:00:32 pm
well to give my 5cent (eurocent that is :P) on the procedural sound thing: I think it "could" work. I said COULD, cause no oone had created the right algorithm just yet. First you need to know that procedural sound would be analogous to today's soundgenerationchip emulation by software. If you've heard about "virtual synthesisers" like Native instrument's absynth then you know what I mean. Software like Vanguard by refx and PRO53 are pieces of software that generate sound by math and algorythms, not by samples.

What could happen over the next years is that someone si maybe going to come up with a perfect algorythm that generates throat noises , mouth resonances and reflection on the teeth, movement of the face based on the basic sonic generation for the vocal chords.

Nowadays you already have software that tries to emulate electric guitars (also from ReFX) and even they are trying to start generating singing voices, but that really doesn't sound good just yet. It more sound like robotic.

There are already pretty convincing algorythmic models of flutes and saxophones but the problem with generating monstersounds is that it's so diffuse and characteristic at the same time that , with the way they do it today: all monsters would sound like robocop on crack.

I'd rather use a real thunder than one made up with synthesisers. You can make huge humms and "drones" with synthesisers that sound spectacular, but something as characteristic as many complex nature sounds with their typical harmonics and stuff.. it's not so easy to generate in a "procedural" way

So unless they could get over this phase and find a way to really make roars in a mathematical way that sound convincing.. I think it's nicer to suggest using very much sounds, pitch them, timestretch them, use analog feel on them, flanger, EQ, (like someone else presented in this forum) to mix & match sounds and why not use ogg files for that? Make a procedural database of unprocedural sounds if you will... but you'll have to have a big convincing scala of sounds in that database and i'd devide it as follows:

For example, you could get a base set of screetches for creatures with beaks, with holes as a mouth or with dinosaurus like mouths etc... Then when the creature is big, they sound a little bit (not a whole lot) lower ), when they are tiny, the same sounds are timecompressed and pitched a bit higher)..

I've seen some discussion about the walking sounds , therse a problem maybe with how regular the walking will be with monsters with 7 legs or something .. So, why not just have like 30 files of single footsteps per monster's "foot" that will al sound slightly differently and that will be used randomly when the foot hits the ground ? Every foot can sound different with each step according to the variations in each sound file. and the sounds can be collected from a footsteps database that has a range of types of feet you have there

Then you'd also have soundsets for panic, for anger for sleeping , snarls, groans , idle stuff. fin types,  They would all belong but not being limited to one monster soundset but all these sepparate sets (foot, mouth character, panic, fun, idle, work, sleep etc) would be taylored to be " sorti" and grouped into one set for a particular monster when you create it ... based on it's characteristic the software could thus choose from all these branched monster sonic elements.

Kinda like you would pick "this" brick for your house wall, "that" tile for your bathroom, or that pipe for your sink....

Now if you'd have 30 or 40 sets of ogg files it's not so entirely big isnt it ?

You just take a soundset like sound idea's the general (or record it all yourself if you're lucky to have a zoo) and make sets..

The cool thing would be if you could insert customized sounds in a set template too :)